Losing Isn't Winning

@Mame,

Exactly - they need to learn how to deal with it. I told my daughter before upon losing something she wanted to win. I told her it is ok to feel bad about it. Imagine that - feeling bad or disappointed and learning it is ok to feel that way. Ha - she learned she can feel that way and the world doesn't fall apart.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Roberta,

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your technical definition of words. By any technical dictionary definition the person who does not win according to the rules is a loser.

I agree that you are technically right. I just don't think it is important. The real question here is who cares? I don't understand your need to have everyone publicly proclaim that you won and admit that they lost?

My philosophy is to focus on the things that are important. These include the company of friends, doing your best and enjoying.

I am sorry, but the fact that you got the most twiddly winks in your cup just isn't that important to me.

I don't have any need for anyone to proclaim that I won anything. Nor do I feel it is essential that people be disappointed if they don't win. Nor do I care how many tiddly winks are anybody's cup.

Frankly, I don't think any of this is important. I was simply wondering whether there was some kind of trend afoot for people to proclaim themselves winners when they didn't win. Mame suggested that it might be a self-esteem thing. Maybe it is.

Thanks, soz, for the possible dialogue leading to some goofy remarks. Also thanks for clearing that up for me.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Both of them are now grown and living successful happy lives.In fact my kids are more successful and happier than your kids, so I win again -- deal with it.

You have got things all backwards. Self-esteem is not a bad thing, and disappointment is not a good thing.

I went back to read what you said about your kids and had to laugh at you. You can win or think or say you win anytime you please; I'm not in a competition with you or anyone else about my kids or anything in my life.

And I didn't say self-esteem was a bad thing - I was alluding to people/teachers/parents not saying to kids "Sorry, you lost" for fear the kids will develop LOW self-esteem, which I think is nuts.

I also didn't say disappointment was a good (or bad) thing - it just is. And it happens to everyone, so why not learn to deal with it when you're young rather than when you go into the workforce and get laid off because your performance isn't good enough or you didn't get the promotion because someone worked harder?

Roberta, you're right - one who lost would be THE loser, not A loser.

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@Mame,

Quote:

And I didn't say self-esteem was a bad thing

I think what many people are actually meaning (please correct me if I am wrong) - but the allusion that every one wins....this can lead to false praise and a greater imagine that one is better than they are. As an adult then you think doing a small thing like getting to work on time warrants a round of applause and a raise when all you are actually doing is what is expected of you. Then when no one notices your "accomplishment" that you are number one and a winner because you can manage to find your way into work - you become disappointed and don't know how to handle a normal situation - forget about a real disappointment.

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@Mame,

You are seriously sarcasm impaired. Clearly, he was making fun of your "I'm so glad my kids are grown so I don't have to deal with this crap" remark.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

I think what many people are actually meaning (please correct me if I am wrong) - but the allusion that every one wins....this can lead to false praise and a greater imagine that one is better than they are. As an adult then you think doing a small thing like getting to work on time warrants a round of applause and a raise when all you are actually doing is what is expected of you. Then when no one notices your "accomplishment" that you are number one and a winner because you can manage to find your way into work - you become disappointed and don't know how to handle a normal situation - forget about a real disappointment.

Ding Ding Ding!

If I had a ribbon thingy, I'd attach it to your post!

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@Irishk,

Okay, but what's the actual incidence rate of this? Pretty low in my experience. And is there any evidence that it's increasing over time? Or is this just the usual muttering from the older generations, about how poorly the younger generations are compared to them, et cetera?

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

I don't know what the incidence rate is. I see it on tv competitions. And I've seen it enough to begin wondering about it.

I nowhere suggested that only young people were saying it. In fact, I have no idea about the ages of the people who say it. Don't much care.

What is the incidence rate of people from the older generations muttering about how poorly the younger generations compare to them? Pretty low, in my experience.

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@Irishk,

Yeah but my spelling is terrible - I just re-read what I wrote --

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@Cycloptichorn,

It seems that way - that it is increasing - I think more that many of us parents with younger kids are seeing too many things where everyone gets a trophy - just for being a part of the action - you get the impression man I did great I got a trophy, but how special is it when everyone gets one - becomes meaningless.

It could be just mutterings, but as a manager at a company now, I do see this attitude in the newer hires. They expect big raises and bonuses for just coming into work. I remember one guy getting upset because he is expected to stay at work until he finishes his job - this is for a professional position where you get paid a salary. He said, I'm not staying, I don't get paid overtime - he couldn't understand the concept of being paid to do a job rather than for the hours worked.

1 Reply

@Linkat,

That's like Starbucks employees who expect a tip (well, they have a tip jar) for standing there, reaching over, pouring you a coffee, and handing it to you.

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@Mame,

Teaching kids to do their best and not worry about whether they win or lose is a perfectly healthy lesson.

There is no winning or losing at my job, in fact forcing my coworkers into accepting their inferiority would probably be frowned upon. My attitude at work is that I do the best job I can without worrying about anything else. Part of this is my ability to want the people around me to be successful and feel successful.

I am engineer and my job is to create technology that solves problems. My focus is on developing really good technology. I suppose there is competition with other companies and sometimes we mention it, but I don't dwell on it and it wouldn't help me at all if I did.

The idea that making kids feel like failures will help them succeed in the future doesn't sit well with me and it doesn't jive with my experience.

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@Mame,

Quote:

That's like Starbucks employees who expect a tip (well, they have a tip jar) for standing there, reaching over, pouring you a coffee, and handing it to you.

I am guessing that you have never worked at Starbucks. I usually leave a tip. They deserve it.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Teaching kids to do their best and not worry about whether they win or lose is a perfectly healthy lesson.

The idea that making kids feel like failures will help them succeed in the future doesn't sit well with me and it doesn't jive with my experience.

I agree with the first statement above.

But I don't think that not winning at a game should make anyone feel like a failure.

BTW, I've never been to Starbucks. I'll stay out of that discussion.

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@Mame,

and they make more than waitstaff so it isn't like they need the tip

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@maxdancona,

but I bet you don't expect to get a round of applause and a reward every time you get into the office on time.

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@Linkat,

I agree Linkat. Losing sucks. I am very competitive. But instead of being a butthole about it, it is good to pluck up the good will to congratulate your opponent and find something good to take away. Even if it is just a "next time I'll do this different". I think having to find the internal fortitude to say "congratulations" is a good thing (cuz - I generally tend to be a poor loser). What does not kill us makes us stronger and all that. Very Happy

My boys play competitive sports...they deal with loss much better than I do. I think it is because I never really competed until I was older. I think learning to lose is a great lesson. I don't have a problem with people not being disappointed if they did better than they thought they would. Or if they felt like they took something away that was positive in spite of losing. I actually think that is a good thing...

The ones that annoy me are the ones that never give anyone else credit. " I just didn't play my best game today" - No sister, she just played better than you. Making excuses for losing burns me up. Just say " They played a great game" and move on.

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@Mame,

George wrote:

It's not so much about winning as it is about not losing. Consider the
word "loser", a simple enough word on its own. One who loses. That's
pretty much all of us at one time or another. But we've loaded that
little word up with a boatload of baggage. To be called a loser is to be
scorned, derided and despised. Thumb and index finger at a right angle
and held against the forehead. The new scarlet letter. No wonder they
find any way they can to call themselves winners.

Mame Wrote:

Quote:

Oh great! Now the PC language police will change"loser" into something ridiculous and unrelated (like 'near-winner') and we won't be allowed to use that word anymore. Soon, "loser" will be such an insult we will be subject to censure if we use it. Next will come all the other "loser-like" words and we will only be allowed to use positive words. Ack.

Scary but true. I hope there is a backlash against this sort of thing...truly.

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@Linkat,

Huh Linkat?

This is about kids feeling successful at sports even when they don't win. You seem to think there is some connection to work but no one has made this connection.

"Daddy I had fun at soccer today?"
"Did you win?"
"I ran really fast and I kicked the ball to Patty."
"Did you win?"
"I had fun."
"But did you win?"
"No".
"So you were the loser then, weren't you."
"But daddy, I did my best and I had fun."
"This doesn't mean you weren't the loser does it."

That's what we are talking about, right? Come on, I want my kids to try their best and to have fun. And even when what they are doing isn't that important, I want them to have perspective, they don't need to get all worried about things that aren't that important to them.

Work has nothing to do with sports. I work really hard at my profession, and I enjoy it. I do it because that is who I am; not because there is any kind of score. I am fortunate to feel the respect of the people I work with and I like that people around me feel my respect and appreciation.

My sport is poker. I work really hard to get better at poker (reading books, studying, memorizing odds and running simulations as well as playing). Yet when I am at a poker table I don't focus on winning. When I am playing poker I am not trying to win.

Any good poker player focuses on playing optimally (i.e. doing your best) knowing that even playing perfectly you are going to lose a good proportion of the time. As soon as you start caring about winning it starts to get emotional which hurts your ability to play good poker.

The lesson is do your best and don't worry about the result. I think this is a good way to live your life.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

"Daddy I had fun at soccer today?"
"Did you win?"
"I ran really fast and I kicked the ball to Patty."
"Did you win?"
"I had fun."
"But did you win?"
"No".
"So you were the loser then, weren't you."
"But daddy, I did my best and I had fun."
"This doesn't mean you weren't the loser does it."

That's what we are talking about, right?

That's not at all what I'm talking about. I think the parent in your example has the emphasis on the wrong syllable.

"I was really mad at soccer today."
"Why? What happened?
"The other team was bigger than us, mostly."
"Did you have fun playing?"
"Kinda. We didn't really lose because it wasn''t fair."
"But don't you love to play soccer?"
"Not when it's not fair."

This is closer to what I'm talking about.

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Losing Isn't Winning

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