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Do you agree with Obama's decision to start killing more people? Then why do you support him?

 
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 07:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I know exactly what you mean, c.i. People, especially if they know some English, are terribly eager to have conversations with Americans. I remember being in Damascus, Syria, in 1986. This was a time when travel to Syria was possible but by no means widespread. Americans were rare in the city. I'd be wandering around the Old City by myself, maybe on the Street Called Straight or ouside the Bab Sharqi (the Eastern Gate where St. Paul allegedly escaped from the city after being held a s a Christian sympathizer) and I was always amused when college-age young people would come up and, very shyly, ask if they could have a brief conversation. They had no reason to like Americans either; we were at that very moment engaged in some shoot-em-ups with one of their staunch allies, Muammar Ghadaffy in Lybia. It was the time of the so-called Gulf of Sidra incident.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 07:19 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
I suspect you're not going to find any way to convince me that drone weaponry is good.

I'm not trying to. (Somehow I managed to ignore the post of Merry Andrew's that you were responding to.)
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 07:23 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
The point that c.i. is making -- a valid one, I believe -- is that there is no special animosity being shown towards Americans as Americans because of the Vietnamese conflict of the '60s-'70s. Germans don't particularly hate us either. Nor do the Japanese. That's the point, not whether money is the great motivator.


I think you're both wrong about this.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 07:30 pm
@Robert Gentel,
You may be overlooking this, but....

The main thing which causes us to have to give a rat's ass over anything at all going on in those parts of the world is the demoKKKrat/Gaea-worshiper insistence on forbidding us to have our own energy resources.

Other than that, we could pull all of the people we have in those kinds of places back home.
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 07:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are fed stuff. The countries are larger than those people you meet on your trips.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 07:53 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I think italians remember.
You know, like, nothing.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 08:02 pm
@ossobuco,
That's also true of our own country; it's impossible to meet most people of any country. I have many disagreements with Americans. Even in our a2k group, I don't always agree with everybody, but when we have a Meet, we get along just fine. That doesn't negate the fact that the contacts I've experienced are unique to a small portion of their population. I'd even venture to say, it represents the majority.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 08:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I do not think I represent the people of New Mexico, by far, not.

I get along with you, CI, have met you well, twice. Your compilation of people who like you around the world will not make me vote for drones as good.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 09:09 pm
I think it's naive to imagine that drone attacks or foreign invasions might win over the hearts & minds of the ordinary people who live in the targeted countries. That they somehow get over it & feel kindly toward their invaders.

I also think it's naive to imagine that it is only the targeted suspected al-Qaeda operatives who were killed or harmed by the recent drone attacks. Why has no one so far mentioned the civilians who have also died in these attacks? It is almost as if they don't count. These have not been some surgically clean attacks which have harmed only their intended targets. Drone attacks rarely are, but that's a fact that is rarely considered in western media reports when some AL-Qaeda leader is wiped off the map.

Yemen is the poorest country in the middle east. It's citizens fought long & hard & at great cost to remove its former corrupt president (Saleh) from office during the "Arab Spring" ... & now (with the apparent blessing of the new president) they are having to deal with an escalation for foreign drone attacks. I suspect that the priorities of ordinary Yemen citizens would be food, work, peace & a less corrupt country. They do not need further instability created from outside.

Removing a few AL-Qaeda operatives does not solve the problem of "terrorism", either, by the sound of things. In fact it seems to be have quite the opposite effect ... of radicalizing civilians who were previously unsympathetic to AL-Qaeda to actually supporting it. In other words creating many more new anti-government/anti-US converts which didn't exist before.

Removing "top AL-Qaeda leaders" has not solved anything at all from the US perspective ... it may have actually escalated the problem.

This article addressing those very issues is from the Washington Post:

Quote:
After recent U.S. missile strikes, mostly from unmanned aircraft, the Yemeni government and the United States have reported that the attacks killed only suspected al-Qaeda members. But civilians have also died in the attacks, said tribal leaders, victims’ relatives and human rights activists. .....

.... Since January, as many as 21 missile attacks have targeted suspected al-Qaeda operatives in southern Yemen, reflecting a sharp shift in a secret war carried out by the CIA and the Joint Special Operations Command that had focused on Pakistan.

But as in the tribal areas of Pakistan, where U.S. drone strikes have significantly weakened al-Qaeda’s capabilities, an unintended consequence of the attacks has been a marked radicalization of the local population.

The evidence of radicalization emerged in more than 20 interviews with tribal leaders, victims’ relatives, human rights activists and officials from four provinces in southern Yemen where U.S. strikes have targeted suspected militants. They described a strong shift in sentiment toward militants affiliated with the transnational network’s most active wing, al-Qaeda in the ­Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP.

“The drone strikes have not helped either the United States or Yemen,” said Sultan al-Barakani, who was a top adviser to former president Ali Abdullah Saleh. “Yemen is paying a heavy price, losing its sons. But the Americans are not paying the same price.”

In 2009, when President Obama was first known to have authorized a missile strike on Yemen, U.S. officials said there were no more than 300 core AQAP members. That number has grown in recent years to 700 or more, Yemeni officials and tribal leaders say. In addition, hundreds of tribesmen have joined AQAP in the fight against the U.S.-backed Yemeni government.


In Yemen, U.S. airstrikes breed anger, and sympathy for al-Qaeda:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-yemen-us-airstrikes-breed-anger-and-sympathy-for-al-qaeda/2012/05/29/gJQAUmKI0U_story.html
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 09:34 pm
@msolga,
Sharing a bit more of this morning's reading about the drone attacks with you:

From the Guardian:

Quote:
A former top terrorism official at the CIA has warned that President Barack Obama's controversial drone programme is far too indiscriminate in hitting targets and could lead to such political instability that it creates terrorist safe havens.

Obama's increased use of drones to attack suspected Islamic militants in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen has become one of the most controversial aspects of his national security policy. He has launched at least 275 strikes in Pakistan alone; a rate of attack that is far higher than his predecessor George W Bush.

Defenders of the policy say it provides a way of hitting high-profile targets, such as al-Qaida number two, Abu Yahya al-Libi. But critics say the definition of militant is used far too broadly and there are too many civilian casualties. The London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates up to 830 civilians, including many women and children, might have been killed by drone attacks in Pakistan, 138 in Yemen and 57 in Somalia. Hundreds more have been injured.

Drone attacks create terrorist safe havens, warns former CIA official:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/05/al-qaida-drone-attacks-too-broad?newsfeed=true

From Al Arabiya News:

Quote:
Yemeni Nobel laureate accuses U.S. drones of killing civilians
Thursday, 31 May 2012

Prominent Yemeni activist and winner of the 2011 Nobel Peace Prize Tawakul Karman accused the United States of killing civilians in southern Yemen while attempting to eliminate al-Qaeda operatives.

“U.S. drones do not actually kill terrorists as they are supposed to do, but instead they kill women and youths,” Reuters quoted Karman as saying in an interview she gave Thursday in the Qatari capital Doha.

The United States has been intensifying its attacks on the strongholds of extremists whose growing influence in several parts of Yemen has become increasingly alarming for both the West and Gulf nations. The U.S. has also been training the Yemeni army to combat al-Qaeda operatives.

Yemeni Nobel laureate accuses U.S. drones of killing civilians:
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/05/31/217727.html

From Salon:

Quote:
CIA drone strikes in the Middle Eastern country are undermining our mission there

Losing Yemeni hearts and minds:
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/31/losing_yemeni_hearts_and_mind/
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 09:38 pm
@msolga,
I'm not sure why we're bombing Yemen; that is uncalled for.

We're already aware of collateral damage in Pakistan and Afghanistan by our military - both by air and land. **** happens in wars. That's the reason we should never have been there in the first place. Thank GW Bush for that!

Give any excuse to join a cause; we have that in US politics. Depending on which side of the fence you are on, you can defend it or call it stupid. Emotion plays a big part in how people think and act.

To me, all wars are stupid. Getting any government to stop wars is an impossible task. Look at what North Korea, Iran, and Syria have been doing without fear of reprisal.

I wrote to President Obama when he was planning to increase our troops in Afghanistan by 50,000 to no avail.

We are powerless; accept what we are unable to change. It's useless effort.







JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 09:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But you seem to think that the conduct of the United States is somehow out of the norm for strong nations.

It is not.


It most assuredly is out of the norm, Frank. All you have to do is count the number of dead at the hands of the US. These dead are the very people that the US pretends it is trying to save.

Why did the US bomb the **** out of the people in the southern part of Vietnam? Because they could.

Why did the US carpet bomb Cambodian and Laotian villages and towns? Because they could.

Why did the US provide material support for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, all the while making pretense that they cared about what he was doing?

The examples are legion.

The US is constantly engaged in terrorist actions against other countries.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 09:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
This is war. If drones are used to kill and dismantle the planet's terrorist organizations like al Quida, I'm all for it. In wars, there are collateral damage, because wars are never clean.


I never thought I'd see the day, CI, the war monger.

If you want to kill and dismantle the planet's worst terrorist organizations, CI, all you have to do is target the White House and the CIA.

If there's some collateral damage, say, you get hit on one of your trips, no biggee, right?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 10:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'm not sure why we're bombing Yemen; that is uncalled for.

Apparently this time to exterminate Al-Quaeda's no 2 leader, already having assassinated no 1 in Pakistan. The problem is, these exterminations of "leaders" don't solve anything. They just seem to create more enemies for the US in the countries where the drone attacks occur. (on a personal level, I'm really concerned about a possible/likely (?) base for drone attacks on Australian soil. I don't want my country to be involved in this sort of aggression in any way what-so-ever!
Government won't rule out Aussie base for US drones:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-28/gillard-tight-lipped-on-us-drones-claim/3916460)

Quote:
We're already aware of collateral damage in Pakistan and Afghanistan by our military - both by air and land. **** happens in wars. That's the reason we should never have been there in the first place. Thank GW Bush for that!

But I was so hoping, along with most of the rest of the planet, that Obama would find a way to put an end to the insanity. Instead he appears to have escalated matters, from where Bush left off!

Quote:
To me, all wars are stupid. Getting any government to stop wars is an impossible task.

I agree with you 100% about wars being stupid ... & I'd add, a primitive , totally ineffective & inappropriate method of resolving differences between nations in the 21st century. (pacifist speaking here.)
Even worse, when extremely powerful nations attack far weaker ones, which has been the norm under "the war on terror".
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 10:42 pm
@msolga,
Therein lies the problem; our governments get us involved in situations we citizens do not like or approve of, but our government goes ahead.

As I've said before, we are powerless.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 11:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
What you said before was that you were good with the drones.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 11:26 pm
@ossobuco,
Yes, and I explained why. The two ideas I've presented stand on their own.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jun, 2012 11:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
As I've said before, we are powerless.

If we persist in perceiving ourselves as powerless & not demand better of our governments, then nothing will change.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2012 04:49 am
@JTT,
Quote:
It most assuredly is out of the norm, Frank. All you have to do is count the number of dead at the hands of the US. These dead are the very people that the US pretends it is trying to save.

Why did the US bomb the **** out of the people in the southern part of Vietnam? Because they could.

Why did the US carpet bomb Cambodian and Laotian villages and towns? Because they could.

Why did the US provide material support for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, all the while making pretense that they cared about what he was doing?

The examples are legion.

The US is constantly engaged in terrorist actions against other countries.


Why did Alexander kick the **** out of everyone else he could reach--or at least try to?

Because he could?

Why did Rome kick the **** out of everyone else on the planet they could reach--or at least try to?

Because it could.

Why did England, Spain, France, and Portugal do that kind of ****?

Because they could.

The strongest nation on the planet, it seems, has always thrown its weight around.

You can hate the United States all you want...and quite honestly, there are many Americans who despise what we are doing in many areas. But the conduct of the United States in this regard IS MOST ASSUREDLY NOT OUT OF THE NORM.

It is very much the norm for strong nations.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2012 05:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
It is very much the norm for strong nations.

You're suggesting that "strong nations" haven't learned a thing or two, or somehow aren't willing or capable of becoming more civilized in their treatment of smaller nations, even by this 21st century, Frank?
Even in this globalized world we're all living in?
 

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