Do you agree with Obama's decision to start killing more people? Then why do you support him?

@msolga,

Quote:

You're suggesting that "strong nations" haven't learned a thing or two, or somehow aren't willing or capable of becoming more civilized in their treatment of smaller nations, even by this 21st century, Frank?
Even in this globalized world we're all living in?

I am not addressing what we are capable of doing, msolga. I am addressing what we are doing.

I cannot think of a major-league strong nation ever in history that has not flexed its muscles inappropriately.

We have not changed.

I cannot comment on whether or not we are capable of it. We may still be a lot more primitive and barbaric than you suppose!

Our species just came down out of the trees a few years back...and is showing no sign of making the kinds of changes you apparently think appropriate.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I am not addressing what we are capable of doing, msolga. I am addressing what we are doing.

I cannot think of a major-league strong nation ever in history that has not flexed its muscles inappropriately.

We have not changed.

I find that a pretty grim assessment, Frank.
That this is the way things have always been & will therefore will always be.
If the (both strong & weak) nations of the world can work together cooperatively in an attempt to avert a global financial catastrophe surely it is also possible for them to work together in the interests of world peace?
I like to entertain the notion that we have evolved a bit since the days of the conquering Romans, etc. .... particularly in the more globalized world of the 21st century where there is so much more inter-dependence between nations than in the past.

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We are supposed to be better than history, according to the propaganda. Instead, we kill because others did it?

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@msolga,

Quote:

I find that a pretty grim assessment, Frank.

I respectfully suggest substituting the word "accurate" for "grim" in that sentence.

I do not like it anymore than you...but it appears we are NOT more civilized and less inclined to flex muscles than was Rome or England or Spain or France.

Quote:

If the (both strong & weak) nations of the world can work together cooperatively in an attempt to avert a global financial catastrophe surely it is also possible for them to work together in the interests of world peace?

Notice my revision.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

We are supposed to be better than history, according to the propaganda. Instead, we kill because others did it?

That does seem to be what we are doing, Edgar.

Or am I misreading the newspapers?

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@gungasnake,

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The main thing which causes us to have to give a rat's ass over anything at all going on in those parts of the world is the demoKKKrat/Gaea-worshiper insistence on forbidding us to have our own energy resources.

That, breaking the power of demoKKKrats and Gaea-worshipers to deny us our own energy resources, would also start to limit the growth of the army of people we now have walking around missing arms and legs from roadside bombs and the like. THAT also is on the Gaea-worshipers' .

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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FOIrYyQawGI/SUhI0v-BWtI/AAAAAAAABXs/S_vI-Vylib8/s400/GoldenCalf2.jpg

Gaea, Mammon, Moloch....

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@Frank Apisa,

In that case, Frank, powerful & aggressive nations in the 21st century should not be remotely surprised if they receive global condemnation for preying on weaker nations for their own ends ... no matter what justifications they might offer for their opportunism.
We are so much more aware of what they do & why, compared to the periods of history you've referred to, via globalization & the internet.
They cannot behave in such a ruthlessly predatory manner & expect respect & credibility on the world stage at the same time.

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@msolga,

Quote:

In that case, Frank, powerful & aggressive nations in the 21st century should not be remotely surprised if they receive global condemnation for preying on weaker nations for their own ends ... no matter what justifications they might offer for their opportunism.
We are so much more aware of what they do & why, compared to the periods of history you've referred to, via globalization & the internet.
They cannot behave in such a ruthlessly predatory manner & expect respect & credibility on the world stage at the same time.

Okay!

But like the schoolyard bully...maybe we think respect and credibility are things that are obtained by kicking ass. And maybe there are as many people on this planet who think that way as people who think as you do on the subject.

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As for using what power we have...look at the individuals who make up what we consider reasonable society. Take a look at what happens in A2K.

Do you think we treat each other with respect more often than we treat each other with contempt?

Do you think the "powerful" here use their power reasonably...or do they use it to bully others not so powerful? Think about some of the most intelligent people posting here in A2K! They "bully" using that power as much as any physically gifted person (or nation) might use his/her/its power to BEAT an opponent into submission.

It is my opinion (just an opinion) that we homo sapiens are not nearly as evolved philosophically as you seem to be supposing.

Like you, I hope that changes soon. But here is where we are.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

It is my opinion (just an opinion) that we homo sapiens are not nearly as evolved philosophically as you seem to be supposing.

Like you, I hope that changes soon. But here is where we are.

I agree, but we are evolving culturally. There's no denying that we are part of a global community. "Fort America" is a joke. The sooner we (all countries) figure it out and embrace our planetary diversity, the better we'll all be. We have a, "if not us, then who?" mentality. We were afraid of becoming Soviet subjects in the 50s-60s, Japanese subjects in the 70s, and Chinese subjects today. There's a component of protectionism that pushes us to fight against global tolerance because we assume (perhaps rightly) that if we aren't the biggest bully on the playground then someone else will be.

The times, they are a-changing. There are factions who are willing to fight to the death to prevent tolerance of other people's views. Extreme fundamentalist on many sides of the playground who don't want to allow a global sea change of an inter-connected planet.

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@Frank Apisa,

Hmmm ... comparing the "power" of some A2Kers with nations that invade & exploit smaller, weaker nations causing death & destruction to innocent civilians.

I dunno, Frank. I can't quite go there.
Let me think about that for a bit.

I guess, off the top of my head, I'd say that I have little respect for bullies who gain power in most situations I can think of. They may inspire fear & compliance in their victims but I seriously doubt they gain respect by intimidation. Though of course, the opinion of others may not matter to them.

I agree that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That's why bullying actions should be challenged when the issues are important enough.

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

They may inspire fear & compliance in their victims but I seriously doubt they gain respect by intimidation.

on a global basis, they seem to be interested in compliance not respect so it's worked out to their benefit

countries, corporations, people aren't usually as interested in being respected as they are in being powerful/having monopolies etc.

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@msolga,

Our powerlessness as it pertains to politics is all around us. I'm an Independent in the US, and consider myself a fiscal moderate. All levels of government have been over-spending. As I've related this story often, I was a member of the 2003-2004 Civil Grand Jury. One of our reports to the City of San Jose and Santa Clara County was that their generous pension and health plans could not be sustained at current levels. I have also written to my congresswoman, Diane Feinstein and President Obama often to no avail.

Yes, we are powerless.

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@edgarblythe,

Doesn't sound right to me either! It's been my position that wars are stupid and unnecessary - but especially those in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. There are other atrocities the US has committed to countries, but those three stand out.

Human nature is complex, and we can't begin to reach an ideal when even in the US, the religious folks don't want equal rights for gays, and they want to take away the woman's right to self determination.

These issues of wars and equality will always remain with us, because that's "human nature."

On a global scale, it becomes that much more complex.

There are no "solutions" for them.

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CNN: There's Only One Left

Irish("he'll never see it coming")K

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@Irishk,

boom.

Joe(sorry about that, bubbie)Nation

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@Frank Apisa,

Citing ancient history is a completely bogus argument, Frank. You use it only to salve your conscience. You know what the US has done, is doing, but for some odd reason, [forgive my frankness] Americans just cannot be straight up honest about this.

These US actions are war crimes, terrorism of the highest level. As the facts show, all the terrorist actions of Al Qaeda are pitifully miniscule compared to what the US has done over the years.

Regarding ancient history, let's just deal with post WWII.

US presidents, upon committing war crimes or terrorist activities, go to the ICJ just like any other war criminal. The US makes such a big deal out of Gadaffi, Assad, Noreiga, Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, ... and they and the history they engendered has shown them to be worse than any of them.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

on a global basis, they seem to be interested in compliance not respect so it's worked out to their benefit

countries, corporations, people aren't usually as interested in being respected as they are in being powerful/having monopolies etc.

But it hasn't worked out to the benefit of powerful invading nations, in quite a few recent-ish examples. Nor did they receive compliance, but resistance from those whose countries they've invaded.
Bullying weaker nations can backfire & have entirely different consequences than planned.
Afghanistan was not defeated by the far more powerful Russian invaders, nor by the combined might of US/NATO/allied forces, despite 10 years of war. AND after 10 years of war it is acknowledged that the Taliban will be the next rulers of Afghanistan. Hardly a victory to the powerful invaders, or compliance from the people of Afghanistan.
A similar story in Vietnam. The much less powerful Vietnamese were eventually victorious over the US & its allies.
Then there's Iraq.
And now in Yemen .... yes, unmanned drone missile attacks did exterminate Al Qaeda's no 2 leader, but according to recent media reports, locals outraged by civilian deaths also caused by the drone attacks are now supporting al Qaeda in far bigger numbers than previously.

I would argue that these sorts of David & Goliath conflicts have worked against the powerful nations which instigated them in the first place. And have diminished rather than enhanced their standing in global community.
I just wish we (my own country included) would finally learn from these disastrous debacles. We lose so much more than we gain by our involvement. And the death, misery & destruction we've inflicted on innocent civilians is unforgivable. And for what?
It seems to me that the only ones who have gained from these endless attacks on weak & impoverished countries are the arms manufacturers & traders.

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@JTT,

Quote:

Citing ancient history is a completely bogus argument, Frank.

JTT…I said muscle flexing by powerful nations was the norm throughout history. You said it was not the norm.

How the hell can we discuss whether it is or is not without discussing what has gone before…in other words, without discussing history?

C’mon!

Quote:

You know what the US has done, is doing, but for some odd reason, [forgive my frankness] Americans just cannot be straight up honest about this.

Many of us are honest about it. Many of us wish there were not so much muscle flexing going on. Will you only be satisfied when every American agrees? If so, forget about it, because every American will not agree about anything.

Quote:

Regarding ancient history, let's just deal with post WWII.

Ahhh…so in order to test whether this type of behavior is the norm for powerful nations throughout history…we are going to confine ourselves to the last 70 years!!!

Do you write this stuff yourself, JTT…or do you have patients who help?

Quote:

US presidents, upon committing war crimes or terrorist activities, go to the ICJ just like any other war criminal.

Name two!

If you can't, name one.

If you cannot do that either, can you explain why you wrote that?

Quote:

The US makes such a big deal out of Gadaffi, Assad, Noreiga, Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, ... and they and the history they engendered has shown them to be worse than any of them.

If you say so…again and again and again and again and again. But I do not think so.

I’m beginning to suspect you do not like the United States, JTT. You are free to do so. In fact, you can do it on a soap box in Times Square if you choose. And you’ll get to come back and do it again tomorrow...and for as many tomorrows as you want.

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@Frank Apisa,

Excellent post, Frank. But, tell me, with this individual, why do you bother?

1 Reply

Do you agree with Obama's decision to start killing more people? Then why do you support him?

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