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Self-Preservation & Arming Terrorist

 
 
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 07:21 am
There is a notion that, "because we have/had to deal with the *real world*" that the U.S. arming the likes of Saddam Hussein and the Mujahaddin were "the right thing to do at the time". Along with that goes the idea or challenge of "what would you do otherwise" [not wage war against the scurge of 'communism'?]

Well, I think the following analogy shows how problematic that is:
[Particularly regarding the fact that the U.S. 'armed' Iraq in it's fight against Iran....]

Such a deal is like arming a rival street gang against another supposedly more threatening street gang. Despite the intentions, the fact that both groups are "thugs" remains. By arming Gang A to fight Gang B then whatever amount of "terror" and consequentially the greater degree of "terror" Gang A causes within its own "community" has at least some bearing (direct or not) on Gang A's increased capacity to supress organic resistance from within its own community.

No 'policing agency' would dare arm "criminals" much less organized gangs.

No 'policing agency' worth its ethical salt would unleash such a plan as effective policing.... and that's talking about the *real world*. Consider the consequences.... It is not a stretch to say it is a complete dereliction of their duty. It is both reckless and irresponsible to arm "thugs" in hopes that the "thugs" just kill themselves with no other unfortunate consequences. The nature of the "thug"/gang, again, remains what it is, "thugish". They will continue to prey on the "weak", etc.

The most troublesome thing of all is that this strategy or tactic as well meaning as it may be, completely abandons and threaten[ed] the innocent people "trapped" in those "gang infested" neighborhoods. Whatever movements that may have made to rid them of those gangs, in the midst of such the Gang vs. Gang 'policing policy', are consequently stifled. Many lives lie ruined if not directly by violent victimization then by their lives held under seige of a now more imposing "terror" from the armed gang.

ALTERNATIVE:
Unless one thinks that there are no people within those communities under seige that want the gangs removed and that all of them are complicit with them, then this notion of dealing with the Lesser Of Two Evils and using one evil to hopefully destroy another is innane. By supporting the unsavory types your are by extension supporting whatever they do and the repression of the "good" people and their movements to rid themselves of those "thugs".

This 'policing policy' stark contrast to other U.S. policies where the "arming" support has been cast to non-governing entities - aka freedom fighters. Again, one must believe that there are no good people - no right-head organic liberation movements - if Evil, lesser or not, is the favored option.

Well, if after the "gang fight" is over with and the "new" policy is based on the idea that "the people's liberation struggle" and the brutality of the regime that repressed them had to go... then the same remained true when the gangs were fighting.

Good Policing policy necessarily means good community policy from the start. Responsible policing means no matter how dirty or dangerous, that the police themselves are the only one's fit to do the job....
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 07:30 am
Apples and oranges. The US had no "policing" authority to go in and attempt to quell the Iran/Iraq war in the *real world* and no one else had that authority either.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 07:53 am
The US considered it in it's own interests to bring about the defeat of Iran. As in all situations the US is involved in, it's own interests is all it's concerned about, and to hell with any other consequences.
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Noahs Hard Left Hook
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 10:37 am
Wilso wrote:
The US considered it in it's own interests to bring about the defeat of Iran. As in all situations the US is involved in, it's own interests is all it's concerned about, and to hell with any other consequences.


Thank you for showing your principles!Apples and oranges.
Quote:
The US had no "policing" authority to go in and attempt to quell the Iran/Iraq war in the *real world* and no one else had that authority either.


Community policing.... partnership with the citizens.... Neighborhood watch....

I think that covers it. But, I guess what I'm hearing (actually I have no doubt) is that all that talk (rhetoric) about Saddam and Liberating the Iraqi people was just that - talk! Or perhaps you guys would rather characterize it as The Interest or Flavor Of The Month!

As far as "policing" authorities.... Hmmm.... That sure doesn't bother US when it's "in our interest"! And I guess the U.N. is the granter of police authority know since it became part of the rationale to "go into" Iraq and perform essentially a Law Enforcement or "policing" function. Hmmm.....
I do recall such language....

Well, I guess now the U.N. is legitimate. OH! But NO! No one had the authority to go in there. (How could I forget?)

Will you guys make up your mind? Tell me if you like apples or oranges?
By the way it looks, my guess is that you like both even if its somebody else fruit you keep eating up!

Then you wonder why...... WHY?
"Why Do They Hate Us???" Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 11:01 am
Noah's Hard Left Hook! wrote:
Wilso wrote:
The US considered it in it's own interests to bring about the defeat of Iran. As in all situations the US is involved in, it's own interests is all it's concerned about, and to hell with any other consequences.


Thank you for showing your principles!Apples and oranges.
Quote:
The US had no "policing" authority to go in and attempt to quell the Iran/Iraq war in the *real world* and no one else had that authority either.


Community policing.... partnership with the citizens.... Neighborhood watch....

I think that covers it. But, I guess what I'm hearing (actually I have no doubt) is that all that talk (rhetoric) about Saddam and Liberating the Iraqi people was just that - talk! Or perhaps you guys would rather characterize it as The Interest or Flavor Of The Month!

As far as "policing" authorities.... Hmmm.... That sure doesn't bother US when it's "in our interest"! And I guess the U.N. is the granter of police authority know since it became part of the rationale to "go into" Iraq and perform essentially a Law Enforcement or "policing" function. Hmmm.....
I do recall such language....

Well, I guess now the U.N. is legitimate. OH! But NO! No one had the authority to go in there. (How could I forget?)

Will you guys make up your mind? Tell me if you like apples or oranges?
By the way it looks, my guess is that you like both even if its somebody else fruit you keep eating up!

Then you wonder why...... WHY?
"Why Do They Hate Us???" Rolling Eyes


When someone makes sense of this rambling, will you please explain it to me?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 11:54 am
I love when the far left battles the not so far left...
0 Replies
 
Noahs Hard Left Hook
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 04:30 pm
Quote:
When someone makes sense of this rambling, will you please explain it to me?


Sense... Common, ethical, moral or something with right-minded principles and constitency was exactly the problem I had with your two posts.

"Our Interest"....

I guess I have trouble understanding that dubious, chameleon-like term also. So, I think if anyone needs to explain anything it's somebody other than me.
Quote:
I love when the far left battles the not so far left...


The let the LEFT (Hook) fool ya! Laughing
(I guess I'm talkin' about theirs and not mine because the punches...
Well, I don't pull and, right here, they were straight jabs! )Shocked
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 06:14 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I love when the far left battles the not so far left...


I'm sure you also love pulling wings off butterflys.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 06:32 pm
I only skimmed your post but are you saying that the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" policy is idiotic?

If so, I agree.

But fishin' makes a valid point. The international means for rule of law are not nearly as well developed as those on a national level and such bumbling will continue until we have better mechanisms to enforce international rule of law.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 07:00 pm
I'm not sure I get all that you're saying ... but if it includes the point that arming the lesser evil to fight today's bigger evil is a Very Bad Idea for all concerned, I'm with you - see my signature line.
0 Replies
 
Noahs Hard Left Hook
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2004 09:47 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
I only skimmed your post but are you saying that the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" policy is idiotic?

If so, I agree.

But fishin' makes a valid point. The international means for rule of law are not nearly as well developed as those on a national level and such bumbling will continue until we have better mechanisms to enforce international rule of law.


Yes! Craven. That's what I'm saying.

Now, about International Law Enforcement.... for those that detract... please!!!! When the U.S. determines something in "our" interest the rules of international law are irrevelant. Like you "interest" proponents have implied, the consequences be they in real, decent human lives elsewhere or when it comes to the U.N. etc. our interest are more important than anything else.

So the idea that we adhere to international law or any standards per se is a facade. What did we say about the U.N. and the consensus interpretation of the international law was against us when it came to the vote over going to war with Iraq?
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 06:52 am
We?
I believe that the Neo Fascists said that the inspections weren't finding anything so the USA better invade ASAP because evidence was there of an imminent threat of WMDs incl. nuclear and that Saddam may sell or give WMDs to terrorists. It was also said that the USA must protect itself and that the UN had no business to say that the USA couldn't do that.

The gang analogy fits well with the global situation. The USA has overthrown many democratically elected Govts. because those Govts. didn't serve the interests of the USA. The USA has also supported, financially and with weapons Govts. that commited genocide and mass murder and torture. Some of these Govts. then stepped out of the USA line of requirements and therefore the USA felt the need to overthrow them.

Democracy is dead.
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 08:33 am
I would like to point out that the policy of arming one enemy to fight another enemy may not be as bad as some of the posts here claim. After all, isn't that what we did in arming Stalin to fight Hitler (1941-1945)?

For another historical example, the Byzantines were masters at this, allowing them to survive centuries longer than they otherwise might have.

Finally, while the U.S. might have been a partial supplier of arms to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war, we were not the only country guilty of this crime. Didn't the French and Russians supply Iraq with much more material, and much more lately?
0 Replies
 
 

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