Should Halloween be celebrated on the last Saturday of October?

@Setanta,

Why do you attack me regarding the census - I did not say one word about it and on top of it I know that the historical facts regarding the census do not fit the story in the bible.
If that is not a sign of a chip on shoulder I don´t know what is.

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@saab,

Why are you calling this an attack? I'd say you're the one with a chip on your shoulder. As i've already mentioned, had you simply pointed out that the 25th of December corresponded to popular so-called pagan holidays, you'd have been right on the money, and i'd have had no comment. Instead, you come up with this bizarre argument about shepherds sleeping in the fields (the scripture says they were keeping watch by night), and the climate at Bethlehem. The only reason that anyone alleges that the putative Jesus was born in Bethlehem is this trumped up story about Joseph being required to return to his ancestral city because of a census. Although it's not immediately obvious to everyone, in light of the silly geneologies given in scripture, the obvious point was to further establish that the putative Jesus was descended from David, that he was born in "the city of David," thereby more solidly establishing his credentials as "messiah." That is far more likely the reason for this silly story than that it actually occured as retailed in scripture.

So i haven't attacked you. I haven't made one remark about you personally. I'm just pointing out that the entire story is suspect. Your reaction, though, looks a lot like someone with a chip on their shoulder.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

blueveinedthrobber

@saab,
It was during the time of the census. That IS mentioned in the bible and that was spring. It's just history is all I'm sayin'

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Why should I have even mention the 25th of December when answering above , where it is said spring.
That is why I pointed out it could have been any time except winter as the shephards were keeping watch by night.
Then you come in and tell me that it was much warmer in those days and the shephards could have kept watch outside in the winter.

By the way have you noticed that great American secular universities, for example Johns Hopkins, Cornell, University of California Berkeley are seriously studying the old testament and the new testament producing many articles and books. This is connected often to the departments of Near Eastern Studies. For them in the fields of Biblical archaeology and Biblical history it is necessary to study precicely the material you call fairytales.
I should mention that modern scolars see fairytales as sources of psychological truth and wisdom. The secular scolars of the Bible and religion (by the way do you despise other world religons) can be compared to a polical scientist who is not interested in politics but takes political philosophy and history seriously.

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@saab,

Why do you assume that i despise any religion? What i despise is fairy tales being retailed as history. I seriously doubt that you can provide concrete examples of modern scholars, in the United States or anywhere else, who study scripture as a source of a reliable historical record. So, for example, there is a passage in Flavius Josephus which the christians use as "proof" of the historicity of the putative Jesus. However, most modern scholars consider that passage to be an intepolation--i.e., text added to the original passage by a copyist with an interest in providing a reputable source for their superstition. Louis Feldman, of Yeshiva University, one of the leading scholars of the Hellenistic world and an expert on the writings of Flavius Josephus, published a survey of modern scholars of the text, and showed that more than 80% of them considered the passage in Josephus to have been entirely or at least in part an interpolation.

So it's not about any attitude toward religion, it's about the reliability of scriprture as an historical source. While i don't despise religion, i do despise the hypocrisy one often sees displayed by religious people, and their willingness to play fast and loose with the truth in aid of their dogma. In that matter, yes, i certainly despise such hypocrisy and perverication without regard to the religious confession of the source.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

November 1st is All Saint's Day, a holiday of the Roman Catholic and the Anglican churches. That's why we have that complicated formula for election day--the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November assures that election day will be in the first week of November, but never on November 1st.

Thanks! I didn't know that.

Setanta wrote:

What has that to do with Hallowe'en? The old name for All Saints Day was All Hallows. The night before that is All Hallows Even--Hallowe'en. So what you've got here is some idiot legislator who thinks he can legislate when religious holidays occur. It's bullshit, it's grandstanding. He wants to get his name in the paper, and do so as expressing concern for children.

Do you think the Catholic Church cares if people stop running around as monsters the evening before their holiday? Do you think the monsters care if the Catholic Church celebrate a religious holiday on the day after they go trick-or-treating? I would be surprised if either one did.

I like the way they do it in Ohio. There, they call it Beggar's Night, and they do it on the last Saturday in October. No legislation, no formal procedure by which politicians with great deliberation and gravitas determine when an event will be observed. They just do it that way.

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@Thomas,

The point is not what either the church or the trick-or-treaters care about, the point is that the holiday is not subject to legislative revision, because it's a church holiday. Beyond that, the ultimate point is that this is a case of some politician trying to get his name in the papers. People can deal with this locally as they see fit, and they don't need any help from this joker.

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@Setanta,

The last Sat in October is traditionally "Down rigging Day" for the US tallship fleets. Its already a holiday in the Chesapeake.
We missed this yers but the "Pride..." and the "Sultana" two hermi schooners , would be marched around the waterfronts near Chestertown and all the towns come out and get drunk .Thats pretty much it. Course a bunch of Skipjacks, Pungies and log Canoes show up and fire into the crowd.
Big times hoo ha

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@Setanta,

So why doesn't he get his name in the paper by suggesting that July 4th be celebrated on the first Saturday of July? That date, at least, is subject to legislative revision.

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@Thomas,

Don't confuse the Catholics with the Baptists Thomas Laughing

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

On the subject of Bethlehem, and Joseph returning there because a census required it, there are two very serious objections to that story (not history, story). The first is that a Roman lustrum (not census) did not require anyone to return to the place of their birth, nor was any attempt made to count non-citizens. There is not only no good reason to think that Joseph would have been a citizen, but very good reason to assume that a Judean carpenter was not a citizen. The biggest objecction, though, is that there is a record of every lustrum which Caesar Augustus ordered, and none of them fit the fairy tale retailed in Luke. So any claims regarding
Bethlehem on that basis are suspect.

And that is why just every now and then I actually learn something here.
Strangely enough, many times it's either from The Big Dawg or that Farmer fella. I did not know there was a written record of every census but that would seem like a deal breaker to compare it with the march to Bethlehem story.

One of these days, even though I'm not supposed to anymore, (diabetes) I'd like to sit down and get snockered with Set, Farmer and Thomas and just shoot the **** on a wide range of subjects.

1 Reply

@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation wrote:

... AND down in Mexico, Cinco de Mayo can float over to the nearest weekend too.

I think Cinco de Mayo is primarily celebrated in the US (it's a big deal here in Arizona), and regionally in Mexico.

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@blueveinedthrobber,

blueveinedthrobber wrote:

One of these days, even though I'm not supposed to anymore, (diabetes) I'd like to sit down and get snockered with Set, Farmer and Thomas and just shoot the **** on a wide range of subjects.

Set does not partake of hard drink. Drunk

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@Ticomaya,

Set does not partake....

That just means he will continue to make the most sense from the facts in evidence.
~~
Joe Nation wrote:

Quote:

... AND down in Mexico, Cinco de Mayo can float over to the nearest weekend too.

Tico

Quote:

I think Cinco de Mayo is primarily celebrated in the US (it's a big deal here in Arizona), and regionally in Mexico

BIG deal in San Angelo, Texas as is Three Kings Day here in New York.

You never know, one Cinco de Mayo I called some friends I knew who were living in some ciudad in Baja California.
"Happy Cinco de Mayo" I chirped into the phone.
"Happy What?" they said.

Joe(um...how's the weather?)Nation

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

I like the way they do it in Ohio. There, they call it Beggar's Night, and they do it on the last Saturday in October. No legislation, no formal procedure by which politicians with great deliberation and gravitas determine when an event will be observed. They just do it that way.

We talked about this earlier in the thread -- in central Ohio at any rate, it's pretty much anything BUT Saturday (or Friday) night. Each community decides on their own, but this year for example (link given earlier) most Columbus-area communities are having Beggar's Night on actual Halloween (tomorrow).

I don't actually know what the decision-making process is though -- who decides when Beggar's Night will be for a given community, and why.

But exclusion of Friday and Saturday nights seem to be a constant. It looks like that started to avoid conflicting with a large downtown Columbus Halloween event, and then stayed (once that event became defunct) to allow for kid's trick-or-treating to be on relatively safe nights (when adults weren't out carousing).

It definitely doesn't seem to avoid school nights, which I would prefer actually, even though it works well in most respects. I am not sure we've had Beggar's night on a non-school night since we moved here.

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@sozobe,

Oh my. Apparently today is another one of my quote-accident days. Better stay away from any green A2K buttons. The "I like the way they do it in Ohio" bit is a quote of Setanta's that I forgot to delete.

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In 1862, the self-styled Napoleon III invaded Mexico with a Franco-Belgian army, with the intention of putting an Austrian Archduke on an imperial throne. The Liberals had recently defeated the Conservatives in Mexico in what was called the War of the Reform, and the Conservatives were anxious to undo the change. The French were considered to have the best army in the world at the time, which wasn't far wrong, if you ignored the rot at the very top, and pretended the United States Army did not exist.

Following the traditional invasion route used by Cortés in 1519 and Winfield Scott in 1847, the French and Belgians marched up from Veracruz into the mountains. The first large city they encountered was Puebla, which, although a Conservative city, was held by the Army of the Reform. The French approached from the north, and, ignoring the advice of their Mexican Conservative advisors that the north of the city was most easily defended, they immediately shook out a line and attacked the Mexican fortifications. The Mexicans had a little surprise for them, though--not only did they defend a large stone fort there, but there was a swale, a wide shallow valley before it, which was not visible to an advancing line until they were almost in it. The French infantry were down in the swale before their officers could react, and the Mexican cavalry, commanded by Porfirio Diaz (later President of Mexico from 1878 to 1913), slammed into their flank, inflciting heavy casualties and completely routing their first line.

That was on May 5, 1862--Cinco de Mayo. President Juarez immediately declared May 5 to be a national holiday. It is observed in Mexico pretty much as local authority chooses. It's a normal day like any other in some places, and its a holiday in others.

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@Setanta,

Dias de los Muertes is a three day celebration in Mexico already. Here you recall fondly those that died by eating them in effigy and giving them food and drink on their graves.

Its associated w" all Hallows and AllSaints and All souls days.

I dont think its a real holiday except for All Saints which is a day of obligation for CAtholics.

We can buy sugar skulls even here in PA with the burgeoning Hispnic populations and their influx of foods and traditions.

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Ohio's Hispanic population was growing when i left, but it had not reached that point yet. In New Mexico, they put crosses and black effigies at places along the road side where people have been killed. On Hallowe'en, they drape flowers and cardboard skeletons on them.

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@Thomas,

Oops, I should've recognized it, sorry!

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

In New Mexico, they put crosses and black effigies at places along the road side where people have been killed. On Hallowe'en, they drape flowers and cardboard skeletons on them.

Oh! I saw that on the Staten Island Railway en route to the New York Marathon on November 7th last year. (Apparently there had been a few suicides at the station I took off from.) I always wondered what the fresh-ish flowers in various places were about. So that's what that was!

1 Reply

Should Halloween be celebrated on the last Saturday of October?

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