5
   

"The Flipside of Feminism"

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:00 pm
@SynnGrim,
Quote:
But the feminists have great tools they use, the bandwagon and fear are examples. If only the feminist movement would just settle with the damage they have already done and leave the country to fix itself. But organizations like this are to greedy to do so, before long America will be a country where men are enslaved by women who don't even want it.
There is zero chance that they will cease and disist until forced to, and given how traumatized men are and how coerced into silence we are the most obvious course is for women to loudly and publicly swear that the feminists do not speak for them and do not have the right to claim that they represent them.
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:20 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I loned you a thumb Wink
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:21 pm
@jcboy,
jcboy wrote:

I loned you a thumb Wink
Is this to function as notification that he is to send you a check?
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:25 pm
User ignored must have responded to me. I'm not sure which bitch that is Wink
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:27 pm
@jcboy,
jcboy wrote:

User ignored must have responded to me. I'm not sure which bitch that is Wink
I see... I must have been right about your JiffyLube situation.....
MMarciano
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
The Jewish Princess could buy and sell your ass. If he had a change dispenser.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 08:03 pm
@MMarciano,
MMarciano wrote:

The Jewish Princess could buy and sell your ass. If he had a change dispenser.
That is supposed to impress me? My order of priority is

1) body
2) talents in bed
3) brains
4) humor
5) cooking ability
6) money
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 08:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
You left out:

7) laundry
8) floors
9) car-pooling
10) bath-time for kiddies
11) bringing your wife coffee
12) school meetings
13) kids' homework
14) gossiping with the other housewives
15) coupon-ing
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 08:38 pm
@Mame,
You are making very little sense, but given your long record of having a thing for me I have to assume that this is supposed to be a slam because I spent ten years as a full time dad. It does not work though, because I never fell for the feminist BS that taking care of the home and family is low quality work. It is some of the most rewarding and important work around, as verified by my experience, whether done by a man or a woman.

If you want to slam a liberated man you are going to have to work harder.....
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 05:36 am
@SynnGrim,
Quote:
But the feminists have great tools they use, the bandwagon and fear are examples. If only the feminist movement would just settle with the damage they have already done and leave the country to fix itself. But organizations like this are to greedy to do so, before long America will be a country where men are enslaved by women who don't even want it.

The bandwagon and fear are tools of feminism? Sounds more like you are talking about extreme right-wing political conservatives--like Venker and Schlafly--who are constantly promoting conspiracy theories and hysterical fears of the "leftists" destroying the fabric of our society.

How do you think the feminist movement has done damage? By fighting to get women the vote? You object to equal pay for equal work? You support denying women employment or access to education simply on the basis of gender? The presence of women on the Supreme Court, and in the halls of Congress, and in the governor's offices of state houses, and in the boardrooms of corporations, and in military and police uniforms, and in offices as practicing attorneys and physicians, offends you? A woman in a pair of pants--whether it's jeans or a tailored pantsuit--disrupts the "natural order" of things?

Which specific current feminist organizations do you object to--and why?

Quote:
before long America will be a country where men are enslaved by women

And what will the women do with all these enslaved men? Laughing Send them out to work to support them, so the women can stay home and structure their own free time--just like they did in the 1950's? Laughing

Or are you just afraid that if women gain significant economic and political power, that women will treat men as badly as men treated them in the past?

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 06:40 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I have to assume that this is supposed to be a slam because I spent ten years as a full time dad.

That wasn't something you set out to do, or really chose to do out of a passionate desire--it came about because you were unemployed, and you've admitted that.

Quote:
I never fell for the feminist BS that taking care of the home and family is low quality work. It is some of the most rewarding and important work around, as verified by my experience, whether done by a man or a woman.

It was not the feminists who devalued domestic work, or the role of the homemaker--that was the male view of "women's work", that it just wasn't as important as all those jobs that men held in the "real world". Feminists not only valued the significance of the woman's role in maintaining the home and raising the children, they felt women should be compensated for such work.
Quote:
In a recently published article, Home As Work: The First Woman's Rights Claims Concerning Wives' Household Labor, 1850-1880," I explore feminist efforts to reform the doctrine of marital service, the common law rule giving husbands property rights in their wives' labor. As Home As Work demonstrates, feminists demanded more far-reaching reform than nineteenth-century legislatures granted.
The woman's rights movement originally sought to abolish the doctrine of
marital service by enacting joint property laws that would give husbands
and wives equal rights in family assets; the movement argued that wives,
were entitled to joint rights in marital property by reason of the labor they
contributed to the family economy. Legislatures entertained feminist
arguments, but none enacted joint property laws or laws giving a wife
rights in her family labor; instead legislatures enacted statutes giving a wife
rights in her "personal labor" or in labor she performed "on her sole and
separate account." These earnings statutes amounted to a repudiation of
contemporary feminist demands for emancipation of wives' household
labor. Indeed, many states continued to protect a husband's property
rights in his wife's household labor by enacting earnings statutes that
expressly excluded the labor a wife performed for her husband or family.
Considered from this vantage point, when legislatures emancipated wives'
"personal" or "separate" labor, but not their labor for the family, they
were preserving and modernizing the doctrine of marital service. The
feminist movement's unrealized joint property demands thus shed light on
the common law of marital status as it was evolving in the market economy
of mid-nineteenth-century America....

While the common law gave a husband property rights in his wife's
labor, early feminists argued that wives should own their own labor. Yet
to rectify the expropriation of wives' labor, feminists demanded for wives a
joint property right in family assets. This joint property right was explicitly
intended to secure for wives the value of their household labor.
http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2091&context=fss_papers&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dpaying%2520wives%2520for%2520domestic%2520duties%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D6%26sqi%3D2%26ved%3D0CDYQFjAF%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.law.yale.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D2091%2526context%253Dfss_papers%26ei%3D8luhTrSiOaHr0gGIw7j_BA%26usg%3DAFQjCNGnk_PSgWaNCgzYxDghH3QzygbaoQ#search=%22paying%20wives%20domestic%20duties%22

Quote:
If you want to slam a liberated man...

What exactly are you liberated from? The burdens of employment?

You definitely are not a "liberated man" according to your buddy Phyllis Schlafly--you are disrupting the "natural order" of things and not fulfilling your role as a man.
Quote:
In marriage, Schlafly argues, men and women’s roles are different and should remain so, in spite of ERA-related feminist efforts to equalize their roles. In an article on the New Right, Rebecca Klatch explains Schlafly’s view of marriage and the difference between men and women’s roles: “Social conservative women believe in a strict division of gender roles as decreed by the scriptures. Gender is envisioned as a hierarchal ordering with God and Christ at the top, followed by men, and then women”. Schlafly defends her stance as one necessary to order instead of a threat to equality; she says, “If marriage is to be a successful institution, it must…have an ultimate decision maker, and that is the husband”. Klatch further states that, according to Schlafly, “It is women’s role to support men in their positions of higher authority through altruism and self-sacrifice”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly's_social_policies


Certainly, not all women feel they should confine themselves to lives of "altruism and self-sacrifice". Let those who do feel that way, chose such a path. Let others choose a path that gives their lives more meaning and satisfaction. The important issue is one of choice. Feminism supports choice, people like Schlafly don't.






BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 07:20 am
@firefly,
Quote:
it came about because you were unemployed, and you've admitted that.


Firefly it had always amused me when you slam others with information they had willingly share on this website while at the same time sharing zero about yourself.

I assume your morals code had no problems with such tactics?







firefly
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 07:34 am
@BillRM,
I'm not slamming Hawkeye, he can live any way that he chooses, but I was pointing out that his assertion that he chose the role of househusband because he is a "liberated man" is not exactly true. And it is his own prior statements that would belie the veracity of such an assertion.

When people share information about themselves it is presumably because they want people to know these things and comment on them. I am simply commenting on what Hawkeye has shared.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 07:58 am
@firefly,
Quote:
When people share information about themselves it is presumably because they want people to know these things and comment on them. I am simply commenting on what Hawkeye has shared.


At the same time sharing zero with the rest of us and in fact off hand you are the only major poster here who had feel the need or the desire to be so close lip about yourself and more to the point your background on this website.

There seems at a minimum something in very bad taste about trying to discredit others posters positions on issues using their willingness to share information concerning their personal lives while not doing the same in return.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 08:19 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
to discredit others posters positions on issues using their willingness to share information concerning their personal

I'm not discrediting anyone's position based on personal information they have shared. That doesn't mean I won't point out inconsistent statements, or hypocrisy, which is all that I was doing with regard to Hawkeye's comment about being a "liberated man".

I've been a member of this site for 8 years, and I've revealed a great deal of information about myself during that time. Sorry, if you've missed it, or it's not the kind of information you want. Like everyone else here, I reveal what I care to reveal, when there is some reason for me to share that information. Has anyone here pressed you to reveal any personal information about yourself?

Your fixation on me is rather sick. So is your repeated tendency to derail threads with your own personal issues of this sort.

Are you even aware of the topic of this thread?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 08:44 am
@firefly,
You had share information’s about yourself Firefly how interesting?

Let see had you ever shared in those eight years whether you had been married or even been in a long term heterosexual relationship in your life?

Have you shared your educational background?

Your career or memberships in organizations such as the ACLU or NOW .

Strange that once more off hand other then you Firefly there is no major poster here that I can think of that had not shared such information freely on this newsgroup.

You had marked yourself out for special attention by not only being so tight lip about you own life but by being so willing to used information others had share as a means to try to discredit their postitions.


firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 01:23 pm
@BillRM,
How come you don't want to know how much money I make, or my net worth, or what make car I drive, or how many children I have, or what size bra I wear, or how I vote, or what kind of home I live in, or how I dress, or whether I belong to or support the NRA, or whether I have any religious affiliation, or the color of my eyes and hair, or my height and weight, or what my hobbies and leisure pursuits are? Laughing

You are just plain nuts. I'm not going to satisfy your obsession with me.

To return to the topic of the thread...

In the cases of Ms. Venker and Ms. Schlafly, it is significant to note that neither of these women functions, or has functioned, exclusively as a wife and mother. Schlafly's own mother worked as a librarian and schoolteacher and was the breadwinner of the family after her husband was thrown into long-term unemployment as a result of the Depression. Schlafly herself married an affluent attorney, which removed financial concerns from her life, but she had earned both B.A. and Masters degrees prior to her marriage (and later in her life she graduated from law school) and she ran (unsuccessfully) for Congress only three years after marrying her husband.
Quote:
Critics of Schlafly have emphasized an apparent contradiction between her advocacy against equal rights and her role as a working professional. Gloria Steinem and author Pia de Solenni, among others, have noted what they consider irony in Schlafly's role as an advocate for the full-time mother and wife, while being herself a lawyer, editor of a monthly newsletter, regular speaker at anti-liberal rallies, and political activist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly

Suzanne Venker is Schlafly's niece and she works as a writer, but she's certainly willing to venture from her home when her work requires it--like the book promotion tours and interviews for the book that provoked this thread. Venker very much feels that a man's earning power should affect a woman's decision about whether to marry him (so he can support her while she stays home raising the children) and she's said she'd advise her daughter against becoming something like a brain surgeon because it would take too much time from wifely and motherly duties. But yet she supports someone like Sarah Palin who went into politics and became governor of a state while she still had school age children in her home simply because Palin's on her side of the right-wing conservative, religious values, spectrum.

So, since neither of these two women has ever functioned exclusively in the roles of wife and mother, one has to wonder why they are advocating such a life for other women. They have also both benefited from the strides made by feminists without acknowledging any positive aspects of feminism. And, in a society where 1 out of every 2 marriages ends in divorce (including Venker's first marriage), one has to question their grasp on reality if they feel that women should still be defining themselves mainly in terms of their husbands and not coming to grips with the fact that 50% of marriages end in divorce, some other marriages end with the death of the husband, and woman often must consequently work while still raising their children. It's also nice to live in affluence, as Schlafly did during her marriage, but many middle class families would be unable to send their children to college if there were not two wage earners in the family saving for such expenses. And neither Venker and Schlafly, nor many feminists, ever consider the plight of lower income women who can't afford the luxury of being a stay-at-home mom nor do they have access to the educational opportunities that could lead to a career.

Demonizing feminism, or presenting a somewhat warped and distorted view of it, in order to promote a right-wing conservative political agenda, with definite religious overtones and bias, which is also anti-gay, anti-choice regarding abortion, anti-sex, pro the death penalty, even for minors, and sees conspiracies everywhere, particularly left-wing conspiracies, might be a good way to grab attention to sell books, but it hardly qualifies as serious objective social commentary or a dispassionate evaluation of the over-all effects of feminism. This is nothing more than the same old song and dance that Schlafly's been doing for the last 40 years--as she's been busy pursuing her own career and "having it all"--except that her niece, Venker, is able to present it in a more light-hearted format.

These two are not going to convince most women that they would have been happier if time had stopped in the 1950's and the women's movement had never happened, let alone convince them that a woman's life should be one of "altruism and sacrifice". We need real workable solutions to the real problems of today, including the care of children in a two income or two career family, or in a single parent home, and that's going to involve looking forward and not backward.


Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 05:57 pm
Well said.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 05:59 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
These two are not going to convince most women that they would have been happier if time had stopped in the 1950's
This is not what they claim to be fighting for...the claim is that women need to wake up and realize that neither the government nor the feminists are now fighting for them. I predict that this argument will go far in the coming years as the oppression continues to mount and as we continue to loose faith across the board in the government's willingness to be fair and in the governments basic competence.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2011 06:03 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
We need real workable solutions to the real problems of today, including the care of children in a two income or two career family, or in a single parent home, and that's going to involve looking forward and not backward.


Had the feminists spent the last twenty years protecting abortion and working on child care instead of concentration their efforts on using sex law to bash men and spending boatload taxpayer supplied funds on PR trying to scare women into believing that men suck they would have had now a better chance of convincing America that they are useful. As it is they are now another know it all manipulating political pressure group set upon forcing us all to obey their will....no thank you, we dont need any more of that.
0 Replies
 
 

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