Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 05:29 pm
@edgarblythe,
I'm not familiar at all with the bills you reference and so I suspect that they only played around the edges.

That's not the reform we need.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 05:10 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Even Perry isn't suggesting that SS was intended as a Ponzi Scheme.

However, if you consider what the elements of a Ponzi Scheme are and where SS now stands, it's hard to make an argument that SS, today, doesn't look a whole lot like a Ponzi Scheme.

No matter what, you and I are going to be able to realize the promise of SS (no matter how meager it may be) because absolutely no one (including Perry) is advocating reforms that don't grandfather in folks who are now 50 or older.

Consider a 25 year old.

He is paying FICA to pay for the retirement of old farts like you and me.

Is there any reason for him to believe that there will be funds available to fund his retirement?

Nope.

This is the definition of a Ponzi Scheme. The crook pays off original investors not with the return on their investment, but with the investments of new suckers. Eventually the money runs out and the last to the party gets f*cked.

This is Social Security.

Your kids and mine have absolutely no reason to believe that they will ever see any portion of the money they are paying into SS.

If you contend otherwise, please explain the math.

Getting all indignant about what Perry may or may not have claimed about the origins of SS is ineffectual at best.

If he is wrong about the original intent of SS does that mean he is perforce wrong about the current state of SS?

Misdirection is an effective but ignoble tactic.


To grandfather SS in for those 50 or 55 is the key to its failure... Without the support of the young the old will not have it; and why should the young pay for something they will never see a benefit from??? They say that nonsense to divide and conquer, and it some times works, but it is a way of getting the working classes to cut their own throats so they can keep clean hands... The government stole that money so they would not have to tax the rich... The rich have enjoyed their high profits and added many people to their number... Now it is time to pay the piper... We have enough hands to pick up the rich bodily and shake every cent out of them... All we have to be concerned with is all the millions spent/invested over seas to break us, break our democracy, and break our banks supporting the military we would not otherwise need to defend exported wealth...The whole government is broke... Perry wants the social domino to fall first... If he thinks that one will fall in isolation, let him push it over... I dare him to...
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 07:12 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

These are secondary elements.

The essence of a Ponzi Scheme is using the money of later investors to pay off the original investors with every expectation that there will never be any money for the final rounds of investors.



No, that's not the essence of a Ponzi scheme. If we used your "essence" of the Ponzi scheme then those running the scheme would never profit from the scheme. A Ponzi scheme is intended to enrich those running the scheme. Paying off the original investors at a GREAT return is REQUIRED. If that was not done then no one would have reason to invest.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 03:41 pm
@parados,
Take it up with Paul Samuelson, winner of the 1970 Nobel Prize for Economics who wrote:

Quote:
The beauty of social insurance is that it is actuarially unsound. [italics in original] Everyone who reaches retirement age is given benefit privileges that far exceed anything he has paid in. And exceed his payments by more than ten times (or five times counting employer payments)!

How is it possible? It stems from the fact that the national product is growing at a compound interest rate and can be expected to do so for as far ahead as the eye cannot see. Always there are more youths than old folks in a growing population. More important, with real income going up at 3% per year, the taxable base on which benefits rest is always much greater than the taxes paid historically by the generation now retired…

Social Security is squarely based on what has been called the eight wonder of the world — compound interest. A growing nation is the greatest Ponzi game ever contrived. And that is a fact, not a paradox.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 04:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Take it up with Paul Samuelson


Finn: Because I've gone as far as my simple little brain can take me. An excellent indication of that is the very quote that I'm relying on doesn't say what I want it to say.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 06:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
A growing nation is the greatest Ponzi game ever contrived.

I would disagree whole heartedly with Samuelson. Do you agree with him that the US economy is a Ponzi scheme?
0 Replies
 
 

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