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Should there be a penalty for not vaccinating yourself or your kids?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 07:44 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:
I know when there was a local outbreak of measles,
we had to show proof (at work) of being vaccinated.
I guess that was self defense.





David
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 07:46 am
@boomerang,
Quote:
It's the other group on non-vaccinators that bother me -- the educated, middle class, should know better, main stream, people who have some crazy fear of vaccines. They rely on the "herd" to keep their kids safe, do they not realize that there is a chunk of the herd that doesn't have their access? Probably they just haven't thought about it. I don't have any problem saying that these main-streamers should be made to vaccinate their kids.


Agreed - this is the group that bothers me. Using my child for their protection. Children of parents that do not have the money or knowledge - that is a different story. However, I remember as a child going to a school where they were offering free vaccines - I forgot which one it was - but I know that these are offered still today.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 08:08 am
@Linkat,

Quote:
It's the other group on non-vaccinators that bother me -- the educated, middle class, should know better, main stream, people who have some crazy fear of vaccines. They rely on the "herd" to keep their kids safe, do they not realize that there is a chunk of the herd that doesn't have their access? Probably they just haven't thought about it. I don't have any problem saying that these main-streamers should be made to vaccinate their kids.
Linkat wrote:


Agreed - this is the group that bothers me. Using my child for their protection. Children of parents that do not have the money or knowledge - that is a different story. However, I remember as a child going to a school where they were offering free vaccines - I forgot which one it was - but I know that these are offered still today.
Maybe thay just DON 'T TRUST the PROCESS.

Every person is sovereign over his own body.





David
Linkat
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 08:17 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I'd agree with you on that David, other than not getting vaccinated effects society as a whole, not just the one person. For example if you were to smoke (not directly in front of me) and we all know it is bad for you - your business that you are slowly killing yourself. If you were to smoke in front of my face, then it impacts my health and there is an issue.

Not getting vaccinated can cause an outbreak that could impact all of society similar to some one smoking in your face.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 08:37 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:
I'd agree with you on that David, other than not getting vaccinated effects society as a whole, not just the one person.
If u play Russian Roulette, your chances of being OK are 5 out of 6.
MANY people r not willing to play Russian Roulette.
Their love of society is NOT sufficient to impel them to do so.


Linkat wrote:
For example if you were to smoke (not directly in front of me) and we all know it is bad for you - your business that you are slowly killing yourself.
If you were to smoke in front of my face, then it impacts my health and there is an issue.
Agreed; I vu that as gas warfare.




Linkat wrote:
Not getting vaccinated can cause an outbreak that could impact
all of society similar to some one smoking in your face.
See my first answer.





David
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 09:29 am
In a related note...

I was just reading a list of (one person's opinion of) what should be taught in schools. This was one:

Quote:
Maurice Hilleman is credited with saving more lives than any other scientist in the 20th century. He was an American microbiologist who developed over three dozen vaccines. In 1909, Hilleman was born near the town of Miles City, Montana. His twin sister died at birth, and his mother passed away two days later. In 1941, Hilleman received his doctoral degree in microbiology from the University of Chicago. From 1948 to 1958, he began to research the influenza virus. The 1918 Spanish flu is the most serious influenza pandemic in recent history. During the 1918 flu pandemic, some 550 million, or 32% of the entire world population was infected, between 50 and 100 million died, making the pandemic one of the deadliest natural disasters in human history.

In the 1950s, Maurice Hilleman identified the fact that genetic changes occur when the influenza virus mutates, known as shift and drift. The discovery helped him recognize that an outbreak of flu in Hong Kong could produce a huge pandemic in the 1950s. Following a hunch, Hilleman discovered a new strain of influenza. He developed a vaccine for the virus and forty million doses were distributed all over the world. In 1957, Hilleman joined the Merck & Co. research organization in West Point, Pennsylvania. While working at Merck, Maurice developed over forty experimental and licensed animal and human vaccines. In 1963, Maurice Hilleman’s daughter Jeryl Lynn was diagnosed with the mumps. In response, he cultivated material from her, and used it as the basis for a mumps vaccine that is still used today.

Maurice Hilleman and his group of researchers invented vaccines for measles, mumps, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, chickenpox, meningitis, pneumonia and Haemophilus influenzae bacteria. He also played a role in the discovery of the cold-producing adenoviruses, the hepatitis viruses, and the cancer-causing virus SV40. Maurice considered his work on Hepatitis B to be his single greatest achievement. He ran his laboratory like a military unit and did not name any of his vaccines after himself. “If I had to name a person who has done more for the benefit of human health, with less recognition than anyone else, it would be Maurice Hilleman. Maurice should be recognized as the most successful vaccinologist in history.” He passed away on April 11, 2005, at the age of 85.


The rest of the list is here, for those so inclined: http://listverse.com/2011/07/20/top-10-facts-you-should-be-taught-in-school/
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 09:52 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
In a related note...

I was just reading a list of (one person's opinion of) what should be taught in schools. This was one:

Quote:
Maurice Hilleman is credited with saving more lives than any other scientist in the 20th century.
He was an American microbiologist who developed over three dozen vaccines.

In 1909, Hilleman was born near the town of Miles City, Montana.
. . . He passed away on April 11, 2005, at the age of 85.
I wonder how he pulled THAT off ?
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 09:55 am
@ossobuco,
Thanks, osso. I've done burn barrels, didn't realize there used to be built-up household incinerators.

I know that bit of LA you're talking about rather well, I think -- was thinking about moving there at one time, years ago.

I remember reading at one time that the first written Spanish accounts of the basin mention smoke just hanging in the air everywhere. Pretty sure on my memory on this one, but not on the veracity of the reading...

Back to innoculations...
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 10:00 am
@patiodog,
patiodog wrote:
Thanks, osso. I've done burn barrels, didn't realize there used to be built-up household incinerators.

I know that bit of LA you're talking about rather well, I think -- was thinking about moving there at one time, years ago.
Some places had them in Arizona in the 1940s; about 8 or 10 feet high
and maybe 15 feet in diameter.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 10:51 am
When i was a child, we burned our trash--most people in our little town did. In the autumn, we burned our leaves, and everyone else in town did, too.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 10:55 am

In NY, I loved the fragrance of burning leaves in the autumn.
Then the liberals outlawed that.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 11:01 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

When i was a child, we burned our trash--most people in our little town did. In the autumn, we burned our leaves, and everyone else in town did, too.


We did the same ... but we looked at first, if neighbours had their washing on the lines.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 12:12 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
In 1963, Maurice Hilleman’s daughter Jeryl Lynn was diagnosed with the mumps. In response, he cultivated material from her, and used it as the basis for a mumps vaccine that is still used today.


Wow!
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 12:21 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Robert, if the policy had been clear that you would need the vaccination in order to return home would you have had the vaccination before you left? Or maybe not have taken the trip after all?


I probably would have gotten it, after all I had to pay a couple hundred dollars for fake papers to get back and the vaccination would have cost lest than $20 and would have been less of a pain than the black-market doc was as long as I had known about it before I was trying to return. I definitely have nothing at all against vaccinations but like all errands/chores it runs up against a rather full plate I deal with and I try to avoid whatever I can.

Quote:
If you thought that you might present a public health hazard would you have changed your behavior?


Definitely, but that I went back to South America two more times and just kept using the fake document makes clear that I don't think it is much of a hazard at all. I think it's an over-broad requirement idiosyncratic to Costa Rica (I didn't need the vaccination to go to the US after those places and within Brazil they only recommend it for certain regions where it's endemic). I don't have too much to back that up, but would bet good money that if I did the research it'd bear it out.

But yeah, if I thought not getting a yellow fever vaccination to visit Brazil were to pose anything but a negligible hazard to others I'd get one but until that fake document expires I probably won't get that particular vaccine.

As for other vaccines that may be less fecklessly required I really don't know much about them, like I said I have no idea what people are supposed to be getting vaccinated for these days.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2011 01:03 pm
@patiodog,
(I read that too, re the early accounts. No link.. I read that it has to do with any/some smoke/smog not dispersing because of the barrier of the mountains, and I guess wind direction.)
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2011 08:49 am
@patiodog,
patiodog wrote:
Here's a thought, and surely it's already being employed to some degree all over the place: make it more onerous to go without the vaccine than to receive it. Require five times the paperwork and bureaucratic runaround to enrol an unvaccinated child than a vaccinated child. Have the processing time for a request to enter sans vaccine be longer than the 10 days required for the vaccine to be effective (doesn't, of course, have any bearing on those who purchase forged or misbegotten papers).


I think that's what they did in Australia (who also allows exemptions for 'personal belief') and it's reported they saw a massive increase in compliance. They also tied it to receipt of welfare allowances -- no vaccine, no check. It became simpler to get the vaccine than to opt out.

Right now, some of the states that allow the personal belief exemption (California, for instance) require only a quick signature on the back of the immunization form -- no questions asked.
cathardor
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2011 05:58 am
@boomerang,
Don't you think, perhaps, that if we spent more time spending money on teaching our kids how to look after themselves - like, clean a cut or or play nice - we'd hav to vaccinate them less? It's a l just a game - vacinations cost nothing. But companys like Reckits and Glaxo make zillions one them.
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2011 06:45 am
@cathardor,
Many diseases can't be so easily warded off. Especially if there are enough unvaccinated people to enable an epidemic.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2011 07:04 am
@cathardor,
Cathador,

The scientific fact is that vaccinations save lives. They save far more lives then "cleaning cuts or playing nice".

Before we started vaccinations, childhood death was a fact of life and terrible diseases like polio frightened everyone. Now the death of a child is quite rare.

0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2011 08:02 am
@cathardor,
I don't think the spread of disease has much to do with playing nice or washing your cuts.

I'm fine with companies making zillions off of their vaccines. They save mega-zillions in health care costs.
0 Replies
 
 

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