13
   

To Dream of Impossible Things

 
 
High Seas
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 08:56 pm
@High Seas,
LOL - the fool who downrated the post has no clue what the NBER site is, has not read the paper, and will remain hopelessly mired in ignorance; can't be helped Smile This is a link to the Oregon study for Joe, and anyone else interested in the topic: http://www.nber.org/papers/w17190
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 09:14 pm
@High Seas,
But it appears that people on Medicaid did better than people without insurance from the summary.

People on Medicaid do better than people without insurance.
People with insurance do better than people on Medicaid.

Hardly a surprising finding since most people on Medicaid are there because they can't afford needed health services. In fact the Oregon study may well show that people put on Medicaid prior to needing medical services may do as well as people with insurance.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 09:29 pm
@parados,
That link to the NBER study was only posted to illustrate lack of selection bias in sampling - via lottery in the Oregon case - but recall you're still starting with a low income population, so the results of medical care are skewed by other factors. You'd need to have an entire population for conclusive results.
wayne
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 09:51 pm
Statistics, as usual, are like the 3 blind men describing the Elephant.
In this case they fail to take account of the factors involved in human health.

People don't just get sick over night, many people on medicare have been sick all their lives. People who begin having health problems at a young age begin losing their capacity to hold the level of employment that will provide health insurance. Once a person begins to lose their capacity to maintain employment, the downhill slide begins, lack of steady work and routine has devastating consequences to one's health.

This is just one more example of someone, who has spent their life far behind the lines, trying to describe the situation at the front, using a map, a poor map at that.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 10:17 pm
@wayne,
You understand you go on Medicare at age 65. Rich, poor, healthy, lame, and sick. You may decline Medicare B, but A starts at age 65.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 10:35 pm
@roger,
oops, sposed to say Medicaid
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 10:48 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
  • Then there's the cut-spending -to-expand-the-economy meme that passes for the Republicans' economic policy these days.

As Krugman's Op-Ed today confirms, Obama has now completely bought into the Republican storyline about the invisible bond vigilantes, the confidence fairy, and the fallacy that the government budget works like a family budget. (A fallacy he once rightly disparaged.) It's not as depressing as the human-rights picture. But it's depressing to see Obama turn into a tanned version of Joe Lieberman like that. Conservative Zombie ideas, repeatedly killed by evidence, are eating this supposedly-Democratic administration's brains!

(PS: I'm trying to find the Alice paragraph where she says, "what matters is who's right and who's wrong" and one of the queens replies, "what matters is who has the power". But I can't seem to find it. Am I imagining the passage?)
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 11:00 pm
@wayne,
Sorry. I should have realized that without being prompted.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 11:09 pm
@roger,
Brain fart on my part, kinda embarrassing.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 11:13 pm
@wayne,
Anyhow, with revision, I'm inclined to agree with you.
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Jul, 2011 11:42 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

(PS: I'm trying to find the Alice paragraph where she says, "what matters is who's right and who's wrong" and one of the queens replies, "what matters is who has the power". But I can't seem to find it. Am I imagining the passage?)

You're not imagining the passage - but it's not one of the queens:
Quote:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Have to leave for Berlin early am and finish a report before they open - see you all next month Smile
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 12:36 am
@roger,
Well thanks Roger.
What worries me is that politicians go around spouting such nonsense.
I only see 2 reasons for that, ignorance or manipulation, either option isn't promising.
roger
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 01:53 am
@wayne,
I'm going with manipulation. They want something that inspires agreement, approval, and above all, understanding by the lowest common denominator.
wayne
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 02:12 am
@roger,
I'm inclined to agree, there are a lot of people, even educated, who entirely lack any critical thinking skills.
That said, it still seems a bit ignorant for a politician, in today's wired world, to think they won't get called out on this sort of thing. Although they may simply be playing the numbers game.
0 Replies
 
multiinfomatrimonial
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 03:31 am
Good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 05:40 am
@High Seas,
So you are agreeing that the WSJ headline was garbage and perhaps typical of the impossible things that conservatives often seem to think?
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 09:01 am
@Thomas,
I watched too much of the latest disney Alice in Wonderland with Johnny Depp. In that movie, I think it was the father who believed in six impossible things before breakfast, at the end, when Alice slew the Jabberwockey, she recited the six impossible things...(I could blame it on my eight year granddaughter, but I admit to watching it the first time by myself..) I have a couple of free classics of Alice in Wonderland on both Kindle and Kob0, maybe I'll force myself to read one of them..) My reading taste leaves something to be desired to put it mildly.

For a long time I have felt the republicans have managed to turn bizarro world (seinfeld) into a weird accepted reality.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 09:06 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

You have to take the data as given, not rearrange them to suit your preferences. Of course there's biases in the given samples, selection bias being only one of them - nobody claimed they're random - but the original statement in the headline is statistically true of these samples - exactly as I said.

True, we need to take the data as they are given. The statement in the headline, however, is a conclusion drawn from the statistics, not the statistics themselves. And that conclusion is not supported by the statistics.

High Seas wrote:
If you're genuinely interested in the topic - other than as a means to try and score cheap points - look up the fascinating study on Oregon, where they really did pick a random sample (by lottery) having only 10,000 available slots and 90,000 applicants for state-subsidized medical insurance. It's on NBER's site.

You do realize that my initial post linked to an NPR story that was all about that study, don't you? But what am I saying? Of course you didn't know that. Otherwise you wouldn't have made such an ass of yourself by trying to point out to me something that I already knew.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 09:25 am
@High Seas,
High Seas, quoting Lewis Carrol wrote:
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Yes, that was the passage I was thinking of. Thanks!
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 11:17 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

thomas wrote:
  • There's the Bush administration's "torture for peace and justice" program in Guantanamo Bay.

To be fair, that one seems to have improved somewhat under Obama. But who knows what continues to go on in the CIA's secret prisons throughout the world?
You know what goes on... When you are denied the facts you know that what goes on demands your attention and action because our own liberty depends upon our having the truth with which to act, and because, no matter how hard we try we cannot deny moral responsibility for what is done, period, in our names or not, and we will be held responsible by those injured when the injury of the world is anathema to our democracy... We know what is done, but we are commanded by the same fear inflicted upon others that paralyzes, If, we are not among those counting the profits of injustice... Ignorance is a mask we wear to disguise from our selves our disgust and self hatred... Democracy demands courage and morality and as a society we have neither... So people wish on to others what they would not for a moment bear themselves.... But I think we cannot all possibly be Lutherens here... We cannot all draw the line between the inner and the outer man... We cannot all save our souls and at the same moment countenance tyranny as so many Germans did with Hitler...

It is the same as with this question: Since we know the social programs designed to palliate the worst aspects of capitalism were never designed for good, but to continue injustice without end, and now we see tyranny so complete by the rich that they will take off the kid gloves and reveal the mailed fist, and force us to watch people starve and die of disease in the streets while our public hospitals fold, knowing we have no choice, no ability to react, no moral ground upon which to stand since we have already sold so often the rights of others for coins... We are living the lie... Not one of us can afford to stand up and accuse another of bald faced lies in order to support tyranny... We have all been guilty of the same crime...
0 Replies
 
 

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