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If everything that exists needs a God to create it, who created God?

 
 
godisgood
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 07:53 pm
@Cyracuz,
killing a man thinking it is good or godly in no way makes it so. Good is not defined as the motive for doing something. It is the outcome of the action. Dont use past actions of others who claimed to represent god, to define me or My beliefs. Love (verb) is not an emotion it is an action. Such actions lead to constructive out comes.
godisgood
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 08:10 pm
@Cyracuz,
No offense but i think it takes a special kind of misguided person to think that because a group of persons did someting bad in the name of god. Then god or good does not exist. They were misguided and so r u. If a man kills a thousand people in the name of science should science b disregarded?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 08:19 pm
@Jeremiah,
It didn't appear out of thin air; man has created all kinds of gods since man learned to communicate. The oldest gods were from nature, but it advanced through time to what we have today. Man's creativity is endless in this regard, and was used to control the flock. Even the bible god from the virgin birth to the great flood were "invented" centuries before the bible was written.

Think: the bible was written several centuries after the life of Jesus. The bible is full of errors, omissions, and contradictions. The Jesus of the bible is only supported by the bible, and nowhere else. All those miracles performed by Jesus would have been recorded by others if they occurred. If there was such an event as the "bread and fishes" that fed thousands, somebody else would have recorded that event - if not many.

According to the bible, the planet earth is only 7,000 years old. Science has shown that earth is over 4.5 billion years old.

Religions such as Hinduism that is much older than christianity has thousands of gods. Wonder why?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 08:23 pm
@godisgood,
Why then did god command his followers to kill their siblings and parents if they are unbelievers?

Quote:
Murder in the Bible

The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.

1) Capital Punishment Crimes:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 08:41 pm
@Jeremiah,
Read Spinoza. He posits god as a causa sui, a cause of itself. The essence of god, he says, is existence. It is impossible, according to Spinoza, to imagine god as not existing because then it is no longer god. Thus god has always existed in some form, whether as a pinpoint of concentrated energy or as a limitless universe.

You'll notice (if you actually get around to reading his works) that Spinoza uses the words 'god' and'nature' virtually interchangeably.

In ths view, nothing was created. It always was. It merely changed form and continues to do so.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 08:53 pm
@godisgood,
godisgood, I fear you mistake me.

But consider this.. What good has come of the belief in god?
I think that the greatest good has always come from a sincere belief in the potential of humanity. All the people through history that have done great things to enhance the quality of our lives have shared that conviction: faith in people makes this world better, and that is a thing god's groupies sorely lack. If they had it, they would not need god....
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 09:21 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I can relate to Spinoza's spin on it.
But the word "god" is forever tainted by the abuse it has endured, so why keep it. It only invites fanatics and extremists to cloud the issue with their bs...

If I came up with an ideology that was completely benevolent that might be a good thing. But what if I said that it was Nazism? I would have to be a pretty big idiot to get all outraged and full of indignation when people started to associate it to what happened in Germany before and during WW2.
Calling my message of love Nazism would be shooting myself in the leg, and similarly, if you have a message of love, compassion and understanding, why associate it with a word that carries so much baggage? It's a sure way to guarantee that your message gets misunderstood.

At the end of the day, love doesn't come from god. God comes from a human desire to love and to believe that love transcends all our weakness. In that sense, god is the achilles heel of love.
godisgood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 08:19 pm
@Cyracuz,
Humans are not self sufficient, we did not form out of thin air. We depend on on that constructive force that lies in everyone and creates in us that inner potential to be good. All the people in history that have done great things did so because they acknowledged the good in them. It is the faith/ belief that this measure of good/constructive force resides in everyone and that everyone has the potential to be lead by it that makes the world better. And that is the thing that true believers not 'god's goupies' , have been saying for centuries.

We as humans have a tendency to focus on the negative, u obviously have never met a true Christian and have fallen pray to the human weakness of 'stereotyping'. When you say 'god' what are u referring to? When i think of God I am thinking of that constructive force from which every thing was formed and that resides in everyone. Therefore everyone needs God/Constructive force. You came from that constructive force it did not come from u. It existed before you and deserves a measure of respect, just like u respect the awesome power of nature.

It is this disrespect that is abundant in today's society and shows up in how we relate to each other. for e.g. our children are disrespectful to their parents, people have no respect for the laws.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 08:24 pm
@godisgood,
Your a2k name and the meaning of it is an oxymoron.
godisgood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 08:26 pm
@Cyracuz,
That would not take away one bit from the worth of the idea, it would only prevent people from being open to it and to judge it simply by its intrinsic merits and not just by the name given to it. If you could get away from the term used u would be able to understand what I am saying. If you are always pre-judging before analyzing a person's views on their own merits you will never be able to understand fully what they are saying. It is essential for you to define the terms that you are using from the very start of an argument.
godisgood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 08:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
please retype, what are u saying?
godisgood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 08:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm sorry dear I do not recall quoting from the bible. i did not use it as the basis of any of my arguments.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 09:01 pm
@godisgood,
Quote:
That would not take away one bit from the worth of the idea, it would only prevent people from being open to it and to judge it simply by its intrinsic merits and not just by the name given to it.


Yes. I could hardly call it nazism and expect it not to be associated with the horrors the nazis were responsible for.
Communism is another thing. The idea itself is good, but we judge it by it's merits. It hasn't proven practically viable.
Why should christianity be different? The idea is good, but history has shown us that the church, the supreme authority of christianity, is right up there with the most brutal and ruthless organizations ever.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 09:17 pm
@godisgood,
Quote:
When i think of God I am thinking of that constructive force from which every thing was formed and that resides in everyone.


I can relate to that. But why call it god?? The vast majority of the world's population thinks of god as something more.
The main issue I have with this is that this force cannot be conceived of by humans, and by giving it a name (God) you automatically, by virtue of assigning a name to it, quantify it and force it into human relationship, thereby altering it so that it is not this force you are speaking of anymore, and that means trouble, every time.
You are right, you know, this force resides within everyone and is the origin of everything. So everyone feels it and knows it. So why speak of it? Don't you see that that's when trouble starts? When you try to define someone else's experience and quantify them according to yours.
Most people get insulted when you assume anything at all about them, and since there are as many variations of god as there are people who can say the word, it really should never be said....
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 09:35 pm
@godisgood,
It's self-explanatory; not my problem you fail to understand English.

You need to learn from Cyracuz; gods only gets in the way.

godisgood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 10:00 pm
@Cyracuz,
We r humans we communicate using words. ' force' like 'god' is a word. Me taking about it, is not me forcing my ideas on others. If u have a problem talking about it and trying to understand it then simply do not take part in such conversations. Cyracuz called it a 'force' and that in itself is naming it. Its just a different name from god, but a name none the same.
0 Replies
 
godisgood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 10:01 pm
@Cyracuz,
We r humans we communicate using words. ' force' like 'god' is a word. Me taking about it, is not me forcing my ideas on others. If u have a problem talking about it and trying to understand it then simply do not take part in such conversations. You called it a 'force' and that in itself is naming it. Its just a different name from god, but a name none the same.
godisgood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 10:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
U have no idea of my understanding of god. And i see no contradiction. Last time i checked an insult is not a proper retort in a discourse. r u unable to point out clearly where the discrepancy is?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 10:32 pm
@godisgood,
Yes, we communicate using words. And for that to be successful, words have to have clear definitions. "God" is not a word with a clear definition. It means different things to different people, and often two people can speak about god for hours before they realize that they mean different things.
To some, as is the case with you, "god" means something like "benevolent force", but to others it might mean "justification to kill those who disagree with my beliefs". It should be blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain that any word that has so many meanings is useless for communication.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 11:20 pm
@Cyracuz,
The reason Spinoza used the word 'God', I suspect, is because he was afraid of the Holy Inquisition in his time, even though he was a Jew.

Poor Baruch Spinoza. He was formally cursed and exiled from the Jewish community in Amsterdam where he had come of age. He was, after all, a heretic. Later on he was in difficulties with the Church and most of his writings were not published during his own lifetime. He was accused of being an atheist although he never claimed to be one. Theologically Spinoza was a few centuries ahead of his time. He uses the words ‘God’ and ‘Nature’ virtually interchangeably. For Spinoza, there can be no Creator which is separate from his creation. God (or Nature, if you will) is self-creating and eternal. Causa sui, a cause of itself.

This almost echoes the Islamic dictum that God ‘does not beget and is not begotten.’ (Which, of course, makes nonsense of the notion that God somehow got Mary, the mother of Jesus of Nazareth, pregnant! But that’s beyond the scope of this discussion.)

Now, the reason I use the word 'god' is because it's a very simple one-syllable three-letter word. It's a lot easier to say than, say, 'force of nature' or even simply 'the Force.' Smile In fact, it's easier to say than 'Yahweh' or 'Allah.' I see no objection to this word which is inoffensive to virtually everybody except virulently militant atheists who truly believe that Man is all there is. I've never said anywhere that I subscribe to anything like the silly caricatures in the Christian Bible.

It is my belief that there are very, very few actual atheists in the worl. Today there are any number of people who consider themselves to be atheists. It’s become quite fashionable, especially in Europe. But, in most cases, if one asks them what they mean by that, they’ll tell you that they don’t believe any of the nonsense in the Bible (including the Torah, or Old Testament) or the Quran or any other so-called ’holy’ tract. They’ll tell you that they think the priests, ministers, rabbis, imams and other clergy persons are deluded or insane or fraudulent con men. They may well be right, but that is not what the word ‘atheist’ means.

An atheist is one who denies the existence of any power or force which goes beyond human understanding. An unbeliever in the teachings of the religious is not necessarily an atheist.

When someone tells me that they do not believe in the existence of God, I always ask them to explain what they mean by ‘god.’ When they’ve explained what it is they do not believe in, I invariably have to agree with them. I don’t believe in any of that, either, except as an allegory or a metaphor. That is Aesop’s version of God.

But I do accept Spinoza’s and al-Kindi’s definitions of a deity.

The man we know as al-Kindi was an Arab philosopher living about 700 years before the time of Spinoza whose views on the nature of God seem to pre-figure the musings of Baruch Spinoza, although it’s not clear whether Spinoza had ever read any of the works of al-Kindi. Yusuf Yaqub ibn Ishaq al-Kindi (or Joseph Jacob son of Isaac al-Kindi, if you prefer an anglicized spelling) was a prolific writer on a wide range of subjects in the first half of the 9th century C.E. In his best-known work, On First Philosophy, he states that God is simply “One” and, as such, cannot be described in any human language. He writes: “…the true One possesses no matter, form, quantity, quality, or relation." (Emphasis mine.)

It would seem, then, that when a Muslim says, “Bishmillahi ar rahman ar rahim,” -- “in the name of God, the clement, the merciful” -- the qualities of mercy and clemency that the speaker is attributing to God are in the nature of a metaphor. For al-Kindi God simply is. No such qualities as love or mercy or compassion can be ascribed to God. “It is…pure unity, nothing more than unity.”

If that sounds as though al-Kindi is contradicting the Quran, be sure that he knew it. He even had the temerity -- or courage, if you will -- to suggest that the Quran was created in time and, therefore, was not eternal but, in time, would cease to exist. I don’t know whether, 700 years later, Spinoza ever said anything similar about the Torah, but the concept is certainly implicit in his world-view.

This kind of non-conformist thought got al-Kindi into more trouble than Spinoza was ever to face. Caliph Mutawakkil of Baghdad, where al-Kindi was living, had him imprisoned and his library seized. But apparently al-Kindi had enough political and ecclesiastic connections to get himself cleared of charges of heresy and his books returned. He died about 10 years later, in 870, peacefully at home.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I am quite at peace with Spinoza's and al-Kindi's definitions of a supreme force.
0 Replies
 
 

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