13
   

whats the point of war?

 
 
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2011 05:21 pm
There are only 2 reasons for war 1) the defense of territory (geographic, economic, political, spiritual, etc.) and 2) the acquisition of territory. The only ones who benefit from war are the ones who finance it and receive the interest payments.

It might take some considerable digging, however, I think you would find that just about every war has been created by the ones who receive the interest payments. World War II was being planned even before World War I was over. Old man Rothschild said that he didn't care who won the war or ran the country all he was concerned with was having control of the purse strings.

Read "The Secrets of the Federal Reserve" by Eustace Mullins if you really want to have your eyes opened w-i-d-e!
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2011 05:26 pm
@Dasein,
You do seem to raise a valid point! "there are many people that prosper from wars but there is a multitude more who do not, and the ones who do not are most often the ones fighting them!
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2011 05:43 pm
@Dasein,
Quote:
Read "The Secrets of the Federal Reserve" by Eustace Mullins if you really want to have your eyes opened w-i-d-e!


I did not read it but if I am not mistaken people like you shared enough of the info that you read with me for me to get a understanding of what you are talking about!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 01:15 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

War is behind countless human advancements from the music and mathematics to nuclear power, war has spurred us to great acts and new development.

War is what separates us from the animals. Sure, there are social insects that will attack other groups for food or resources, but man is the only species that can fight for justice or ideas. And without war, justice is impossible and ideas are meaningless

Democracy was born of war, without war our country would have never existed or survived. We not unique in this, all Great civilizations rise and fall with war. War builds fortunes, provides heroes and drives economies. It informs our identities and provides us with the drive toward excellence.

Without war, we wouldn't be human.


Wow

Who is using maxdancona's A2K account?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 01:20 am
@Setanta,
Semantics.

Led them "to" or "in" war?

Lincoln and Churchill could have led their nations away from war.



Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 03:44 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I've long known you aren't very bright, but you seem to have a compulsion to demonstrate it. Neither Churchill nor Lincoln could have lead their respecctive nations away from war, they were already at war. In the case of Churchill, England had been at war for nine months when he took power, and, of course, he became PM precisely because he offered the leadership his nation wanted. You're a mere contrarian. You just want to argue, you don't actually have a point to make.
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2011 09:55 pm
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

what good came from war?
besides ending slavery and stopping hitler.


Are those two reasons poor ones?

Here's another fabricated quote/variation to add to some of the preceding:

"War is a function of politics."

Does war require a teleology to exist, and/or an ideology? Is war undertaken for long-term or immediate goals? How often would the difference make a difference?

Obviously, you are trying to make a point, otherwise the question wouldn't be posed so naively. If you have a negative criticism to make of war, for which there are many, why not state it explicitly? I for one am anti-war (but who isn't?), without thinking that it is always evitable. Thanks to the inevitable short circuit that occurs when too many people try to unite in judgment (which is always divisive), war happens. Until our population is restricted in some way, wars will always happen. Is that an acceptable answer to the question, "The point of war is nature's attempt at population control"?
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2011 11:45 am
@Razzleg,
Razzleg wrote:

hamilton wrote:

what good came from war?
besides ending slavery and stopping hitler.


Are those two reasons poor ones?


i dunno. are they?
Razzleg
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 05:03 am
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

i dunno. are they?


Is that really your sole response to my post? Y'know, if you thought that my post was ridiculous, i wouldn't be insulted if you ignored it -- but the sort of empty, "positioning for a rhetorical victory" response that you provided is the reason i stopped posting on philosophy sites a while back. At least, for the most part...

If you wanted to enter into a discussion, you might try employing the general back and forth that such a social activity implies, i.e. you ask a question, i answer and ask a new one in return and then vice versa. It seems as if every Φ poster wants to win the argument, but it is impossible to win an argument online. The interwebz are the definition of an infinite regress. Wouldn't it be more fruitful to enter into a conversation, a sharing rather than a contrast of povs? Otherwise, the only result is frustration or the meaningless ego-stroking that comes from the unqualified agreement of strangers. I mean, really, who gives a ****?

To answer your totally unqualified question again:
hamilton wrote:

what good came from war?
besides ending slavery and stopping hitler.


My answer, in a slightly broader manner of speaking is: War is "generally" inevitable. While always avoidable in any one given circumstance, it is not avoidable in every circumstance. The nature of human beings almost guarantees that war will erupt when people are at their most vulnerable within a crisis situation.. That being said, it is difficult to tie the occurrence of war to one string of events, or to associate it with a single cause. The onset, and carrying out, of war represents a congruence of unfortunate events. However, although war is a negative, destructive occurrence, it may ultimately have positive social consequences -- such as, as i see it, the abolition of slavery or the end of the Nazi conquest. Although the victors of any war are rewarded the right to determine the social changes that result (to some degree), it is generally the heirs of that war (which include both the victors and the defeated, and who occupies which role may not be clear-cut, if those roles even have any reality) that bear the responsibility to evaluate those social changes. By that token, many goods came from war --depending upon who benefits from it. The degree to which we recognize those goods is directly related to our recognition of the authority of the past (ie the writers of history --the victors). Failing to recognize that authority, we may still enjoy the benefits of war; but the invective delivered towards the victors of past wars is ultimately a way of evading responsibility for present conditions, if such invective is not delivered critically.

"What is the point (ie end, ie teleology, ie outcome?) of war?"[Italicized portions are my additions to the question.]

That is the responsibility of its heirs (either immediate or late-coming) to choose. But if they would like to enjoy, without deceiving themselves, the benefits of past wars, then they must also accept some responsibility (ie accountability) for the wars that provided them. I will accept responsibility for the US Civil War and WWII, which will require me to make certain (international, etc.) social negotiations, in order to maintain the broad benefits that i perceive as a result of them...in other words, i wouldn't take back either the Civil War or WWII even if i could...because, ultimately, i think the benefits of them justify their occurrence...And even taking these benefits off the table, I am convinced that the wars would have taken place anyway.

By the same token, those self-same benefits could have happened without those wars and without those deaths...but they didn't.

I am getting tired, and i feel as though my response is growing too general, too diffuse. I am no longer responding to your question at all. Wars have points, but they are many and each point's relative value is determined by the projected benefit of the victor and the revaluation of the heir.

Do you think that the abolition of slavery and the end of the Nazi conquest were worth going to war for? If you don't have "yes or no" answers available then i've got nothing more to say to you.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 07:51 am
@Razzleg,
Razzleg, a sincere, thoughtful, and intelligent post. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 11:54 am
@Razzleg,
I agree with JLNobody's observation of your post.

However, if you carefully read your post you will notice that all of the explanations/justifications for war are always after the event begins and after it is over. The abolition of slavery, the defeat of Hitler, and any and all "social change" were not the intended purpose of the war. They are the after-the-fact justifications for the war being referred to.

Wars don't just 'happen'. War is about territory. The acquisition or defense of economic territory (wealth), geographical territory, emotional territory, spiritual territory, and social territory.

Again, wars don't just 'happen'. 'Somebody and his advisers' have been coveting the above-mentioned territories and plotting the resulting war since the beginning of humans, 'Be'-ing on this planet. Hitler and Mussolini were unsophisticated 'bullies'. The real masters of war do it in such a way to make you think 'wars happen' and provide themselves with 'plausible deniablity'.

Throughout history we have had prime examples. The English and the 'Crusades' (the acquisition of spiritual and geographical territory (with all of its riches) in the middle east). The Vikings and their 'murderous pillaging'. Hitler stealing from the Jews. The imperialist countries around the world snatching up territory and calling them colonies. The Spanish Inquisition.

The “Agricultural Depression” of 1920-21 was a scheme to get back money paid to farmers during World War I by closing down banks in the west and in the mid-west who wouldn't become part of the Federal Reserve System.

“The Great Depression” was an economic 'war' for the acquisition of wealth. 'Somebody and his advisers' plotted and manipulated the people of this country to invest in 'highly speculative' stocks knowing about the impending 'crash'. Even Calvin Coolidge, the President of the United States, in the early part of 1929 persuaded the workers and farmers of this country to invest in 'get-rich' stocks already having knowledge of the impending doom. After purchasing the 'get-rich' stocks the national interest rate went to 6% and the stock market call rate was raised to 20%. Unable to meet the rate, speculators jumped out of windows. After all of the investors had been bankrupted the rated dropped to 1.5% on May 8, 1931.

Like Calvin Coolidge, FDR knew about the impending doom (war against Germany and war against Japan) yet throughout much of his presidency he kept telling the nation through his 'Fireside Chats' that he wouldn't involve us in those conflicts. World War II saw the redistribution of territory among the 'victors'.

France had a 40-year war in Viet Nam because of the rubber tree plantations. We went to Viet Nam for the same reason under the guise of 'ending communism'.

The point is that all the explanations, the justifications, and the proof we come up with has nothing to do with what causes war. War is always started long before it erupts.

Good things will always happen as the consequence of war. That is our humanity attempting to make sense of something we have no knowledge about.

It seems that the only goal we have in life is to build a room at the top of a steeple, within the confines of a castle so that we have a safe place to 'count' all of the territory we've acquired.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 11:58 am
@Dasein,
I agree that the abolition of slavery was not the justification for the American civil war. Basically, the South started that war, and got their collective military ass handed to them. However, the defeat of Hitler was most definitely the reason for American involvement in the European war. We were attacked by the the Empire of Japan, and then Hitler declared war on us. So we went to war in Europe to defeat Hitler. To use a common and pungent saying, if you **** with the bull, you get the horn.
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 12:48 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I agree that the abolition of slavery was not the justification for the American civil war. Basically, the South started that war, and got their collective military ass handed to them. However, the defeat of Hitler was most definitely the reason for American involvement in the European war. We were attacked by the the Empire of Japan, and then Hitler declared war on us. So we went to war in Europe to defeat Hitler. To use a common and pungent saying, if you **** with the bull, you get the horn.
The same bankers that financed Hitler's war effort are the same bankers that financed the U.S. and it's allies. The reasons you stated are not inaccurate, however, FDR knew about the impending war with Hitler long before we were sold the substantial reasons for participation. FDR had to wait for an American ship to be sunk in the Atlantic to muster the support of the American people.

FDR and several high-ups knew about Japan too which is why you hear the conspiracy theories about communications from Japan that were ignored. Again, FDR had to sacrifice Pearl Harbor to muster the support of the American people.

The attempt at acquiring Cuba from Spain was contemplated for some time before we heard "Remember the Maine" being shouted from the roof tops. When the Spanish-American War commenced Admiral Dewey rushed to the Phillipines to defeat the Spanish fleet.

We went "all in" with Cuba and they won the hand. However, we did acquire use of the Phillipines (Clark AFB & Subic Bay Naval Station) for a long time and still are in a 'decent' relationship with them.

There are many products which you and I 'buy' the marketing jargon and become upset when we discover the marketing was just a version of 'the hand is quicker than the eye".
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 01:26 pm
@Dasein,
All of your fantasies about bankers don't alter that we did not go to war with Germany until Hitler had declared war on us. As for your fantasies about Pearl Harbor, you're never going to be able to explain away the war warning message, sent a week before the attack. You can't blame FDR for the failure of Kimmel and Short to take appropriate action. The reason for the revionist conspiracy bullshit is that we had long derided and despised the Japanese, who nevertheless pulled of one of the most brilliant naval operations of all time. Too many Americans would rather blame FDR than admit that their racist contempt for the Japanese was wrong.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 03:29 pm
@Setanta,
Set, by now it seems obvious that at least in the "modern era" most wars are instigated, or at least encourage, for the profits they may accrue. I confess this is conspiratorial in tone and motive as well as founded on a weak command of history. But please tell me: what is your understanding of Eisenhower's warning regarding our (and what about an international?) military-industrial complex?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 04:45 pm
@JLNobody,
Actually, i think people were more likely to go to war for "commercial" reasons before the 20th century. The motives were not always commercial, though. Old Joe Pulitzer shamelessly exploited the Maine incident to stir up feeling against Spain, when horror stories about the concentration camps in Cuba hadn't done so. That being said, Congress was more inclined to vote for war given the commercial advantages which would accrue to their affluent constituents once Pulitzer had whipped up popular sentiment. Had it, for example, only been about the Philippines, where the American business had no interests, nor immediate prospects for profit, i doubt that the Congress would have been so willing.

However, to say that therefore business interests instigated the Spanish War would be to confuse cause and effect. Sometimes it is all about someone's financial interest, such as our non-military invasion of Nicaragua before the First World War (1911?), which turned military in the 1930s when Sandino threatened us (as we thought) with Bolshevism in the western hemisphere. That was always about American business interests. Although the merchants of death do so often profit from war, i am skeptical of any claims that they instigate wars for their own profit. They make a good profit supplying the tools of the trade when there are no wars--wars are just windfall profits for them. By and large, wars are instigated by a few or even a single man, and the vultures close in very quickly.

In 1914, the Austrian Foreign Minister, Berchtold, having waited three weeks, presented Serbia with just about the most humiliating ultimatum ever delivered by one nation to another. (So said Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary.) The Serbs swallowed their pride, and accepted all the terms of the ultimatum, except that Serbia was complicit in the assassination of the Arch Duke, and that Austrian police and judges be allowed to take over the inquiry and hold trials on Serbian soil. This was pretty standard, and Serbia simply wanted to negotiate, under the auspicies of the Court at the Hague, or the Great Powers. In less than 48 hours, Austria rejected the Serbian reply and declared war.

Bethmann-Hollweg (the German Chancellor) and the Kaiser had basically guaranteed military support to Austria after the assassination of the Arch Duke, but before the Austrians sent their ultimatum, which Berchtold did without consulting his German allies. Then they went off on separate summer vacations. When they learned the contents of the ultimatum, and then two days later that Austria had declared war, they basically whispered "O, mein Gott" and began wringing their hands. Russian responded to the Austrian declaration by declaring war on Austria, as a restult of which German was obliged by treaty obligations to declare war on Russia. That triggered France's treaty obligations, and she declared war on Germany. In 1830, Britain, France and Prussia had guaranteed Belgium's sovereignty and defense, so when Germany invaded Belgium (i won't go into the whys and wherefores), England declared war on Germany. I'll leave the matter of the Italian reptiles to one side.

No commercial interest instigated the madness of the First World War. The system of alliances and treaties dragged the Great Powers into that ruinous war, and the merchants of death profited mightily. I won't take the time to review the ridiculous claim that the Versailles treaty made the Second World War inevitable. Hitler, and Hitler alone, was responsible for that one.

Korea and Vietnam were the product of alliances and mutual fears and mistrusts contingent upon the cold war. Once again, the merchants of death were there to pick up the profits, but it would be idiocy to blame them for those events.

I believe that Eisenhower was warning us not of people who would instigate war, but of people who were already in bed together (the military and the industry of military procurement) and who would rob us blind in peacetime. It was already a case of military officers retiring and taking employment with the corporations with whom they had done business while still in uniform. That mutual back-scratching society was already ramping up for the great theft of public money, and that is what Eisenhower was warning us about.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 04:48 pm
@Setanta,
it shows how far gone some people are when they have wars for commercial reasons...
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 05:11 pm
@Setanta,
Thanks, Set. Now when I make that claim I can cite some facts to show how it is not massively true.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 06:12 pm
@JLNobody,
Colonial wars such as those between England and France in the 18th century could be considered commercial wars, because the mercantilism they practiced guaranteed the profits of the friends of government. England would always go to war to protect their foreign trade, because it was their economic life blood. Parliament was in the hands, bascially, of two interests--the landed gentry and the mercantile interests. They often found that their interests coincided, and England's paranoia about invasion helped to keep the Royal Navy popular, while that navy was the principle agent by which England projected her power througout the world. Some wars were incredibly stupid things (such as the War of Jenkins' Ear), but support could be whipped up in Parliament because the monied interests would or thought they would profit by going to war with France or Spain. From the late 16th century until 1809, the English were always avid to break into the trade with the Spanish empire, especially in the "New World." "Hearts of Oak" and "England's Jolly Tars" could always be hauled out and dusted off for the public support--not that it mattered much, as those wars had very little effect on the day to day life of anyone in England except the lowest, most friendless classes.

So i can see why people would want to believe that wars were instigated by cabals of private individuals seeking to profit. Theft in office, though, was institutionalized in England by the 18th century, and the Admiralty were scandalously robbed as a matter of course, war or no war. The War of Jenkins' Ear was entirely a political war, from which most members of Parliament or their puppet masters hoped to profit. An English merchant captain named Jenkins and his ship were seized by the Spanish coast guard on the Spanish Main and accused of piracy, for which his ear was cut off. For almost a decade, England demanded an inquiry and compensation, but not very loudly. But the Prime Minister, Walpole, was the target of increasing attacks by the opposition, who alleged that he was in bed with the Spanish. So, in 1739, Walpole and England declared war on Spain--largely to silence Walpole's critics. (It was more than a hundred years later that the war was given the name of the War of Jenkins' Ear.)

In those days, though, there was no military industrial complex. There were any number of unscrupulous contractors who battened on the government to profit from them, but the revolving door about which Eisenhower warned us did not exist then. Individuals exploited situations, and governments were inextricably tied to commercial interests, but it was still government which started the wars. Ironically, it was often canny leadership which exploited the exploiters for their own ends.

King James (of King James Bible fame) had a son (despite almost certainly having been homosexual--getting children was a royal duty), Charles, and Charles had several sons and daughers. Charles got his head cut off at the end of January, 1649, but not before marrying his daughter Mary off to the Prince of Orange. She and the Prince produced a son, William, and he was married off to Mary Stuart, who was the daughter of James Stewart, one of Charlie's sons, and the niece of her new mother-in-law. That sickly boy, William of Orange, fought to preserve Holland from Louis XIV all his life. In 1685, King Charles II died, and his brother, James, became King James II. He was a Catholic, as was his wife, Mary of Modena. (His daughters Mary and Anne were the children of an earlier, Protestant marriage.) In 1688, Mary of Modena gave James a son, and Protestant England panicked. William of Orange and his wife Mary landed in southern England with a Dutch army, and the senior English General, John Churchill, deserted James and went over to William and Mary (yes, the college in Williamsburg, Virginia is named for them). William treated Churchill rather shabbily, and in 1690, he defeated the Catholic army of James in Ireland, which lead to the establishment of the Orange order in Ulster, and the rise of the Orangement there (William was the Prince of Orange, which is in France, and which Louis had already taken away from him--too long an explanation.)

In 1689, William went to war with Louis again, which was the Nine Years War (called King William's War in North America). William was preserving Holland from France, and the English went along because France was Catholic, and James was living there, so it was easy to convince Parliament that it was in their best interest to go to war. By the time that war ended in 1698, Mary was dead and William had no heir. By the settlement of 1688 (the so-called "glorious revolution"), he would be succeeded by his sister-in-law Anne.

Then in 1700, King Carlos II of Spain died. He bequeathed his kingdom to the grandson of Louis XIV, who had married his half-sister. William immediately began putting together an alliance to oppose a Bourbon monarch mounting the Spanish throne. (Holland had been owned by the Spanish until 1648, so the thought of a single King of France and Spain was the Dutch's worst nightmare.) But William died in 1701, just as the war was beginning. Anne became Queen, and her closest female friend and confidant was the wife of John Churchill, the Earl of Marlborough, so she created John Churchill the Duke of Marlborough, and he continued to put together an alliance to fight Louis.

Marlborough and his friend in Parliament, Sidney Godolphin, now convinced Parliament that England should lead a coalition to prevent Louis' grandson from mounting the Spanish throne. Marlborough went to the continent to lead the Anglo-Dutch army along with their German mercenary allies, and Goldolphin stayed in London and ran the government for Queen Anne. (In North America, the War of the Spanish Succession was called Queen Anne's War.) Parliament went along because they dreamed of trade concessions with Spain once the put their boy on the throne. True to their conservative and stubborn nature, the Spanish decided that if King Carlos had given them to Philip of France, then a Bourbon king they would have. So the English fought to keep a Frenchman off the Spanish throne, and the Spanish fought to put him there.

Not much happened in the way of an effective war in Spain, though certainly thousands died there. The great events of the war took place in Flanders, France, Bavaria and Italy. The "Great Captains" Prince Eugene of Savoy and the Duke of Marlborough fought and won their greatest battles, and the combined might of most of Europe--those who weren't involved in the Great Northern War between Russia, Sweden, Poland (sort of), Saxony and Denmark--finally broke the massive military power of Louis XIV. Louis' grandson still became the King of Spain, and England kind of, sort of got their trade concessions.

Which was why Robert Jenkins' was sailing along the coast of the Spanish Main to get his ear cut off in 1731. Marlborough and Goldolphin were fighting to break the power of Louis XIV, and succeeded despite the dirt thrown at them by the Whigs, who were only fighting to get a foot in the door with the Spanish colonies. So, despite the commercial interests which Goldolphin suckered into backing the war, he and Marlborough succeeded in defeating the French military behemoth which threatened to swallow Europe (except, of course, for Sweden and Russia--but that's a different brand of idiocy that went on there).

History can be made to yield principle causes, but it is always foolish to think that there is any pat cause which applies at all times and in all places.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2011 10:31 pm
@Setanta,
Thanks, that was generous to say the least.
Yes, nice distinction between principal causes and ubiquitous "pat" causes. I've always included in my list of the "principal" (if not pat) reasons for war the glorification of ego, national and individual honor, competition for resources, and--since the industrialization of the means of war, viz, the big business of arms production. This is not as exhaustive a list as I assumed
.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/25/2024 at 06:45:51