Pete Rose in/out

Lets see ... the all time hit leader in the history of baseball... that's a tough one. Of course he should be in it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Ethics.

Baseball is more than a game, as most professional games are. You expect that the players are going to give it their all. You expect that who wins or loses is not known before the game begins. People pay big money to go to the games. Municipalities pay big money to provide stadiums. The media pay big money to broadcast "an important game" precisely because the outcome is not known.

For example, would you go to the racetrack (whether or not you were a bettor) if you knew that the outcome had been fixed? Would you go to a football game, knowing that one team's manager had chosen not to bet on his team because he "knew" that they'd likely lose? Would the advertisers for NBC pay millions of dollars a minute for ads during the broadcast of the SuperBowl if the managers had already decided would win and who wouldn't?

One of the reasons that Randy Johnson became so hated in Seattle is that after he decided he didn't want to be a Mariner anymore, he quit trying. All the fans could feel it and the scores showed it. What crappy sportsmanship!

In the same way, a manager of a baseball team who bets is wrecking the game. He has too much influence on the game itself. This doesn't happen just in baseball. Any company that has a contest, say a drawing for a trip to Hawaii, doesn't allow anyone connected with the company to be in the contest. It's just not done. It's not fair.

Betting and inside influencing of a professional game's outcome is the surest way to ruin the entire game industry. Surely you can see that.

McGentrix, you said:


There are two rules btw... one is that he was tossed out of major league baseball for betting -- clearly against the rules. The other is that nobody gets into the Hall of Fame who isn't in major league baseball. Which one is stupid?

Do you disagree with both those rules all the time, or only this once, for this one cheater?

Its not a question of moral character. It doesn't matter that Ted Williams was belligerent, Ty Cobb was a bully, or even that Pete Rose was (and is) a remorseless jerk.

Yes, baseball is only a game. One of the things that makes it a game is that, unlike life, it has rules. Clear, simple, easy-to-understand rules.

Not betting on baseball is the cardinal rule. Its not only not a stupid rule, its an absolutely essential one if the game is to survive as a spectator sport. Everyone who has been caught betting on games, from 1919 on, has been banned from baseball and the Hall of Fame for life, without exception.

Pete Rose defied the rule, even though he knew the consequences, breaking it not once, but hundreds of times over the length of his career.

Was he good enough to be in the Hall, based on his numbers? Sure. Does he deserve to be in the Hall? No. There are many injustices in the world. This isn't even close to being one of them.

Grey, I don't see you post a lot, but virtually always agree with you , as opposed to myself, with whom I may differ from time to time.

but here, yes, agree.

This one.

I have no problem with him being banned from baseball. But why should the Hall of Fame ban anyone? It's there to recognize the inherit greatness of its players. No one can deny that Rose is one of the greatest players. ever.

I remember when the Hall of Fame decided to give Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins the boot because of their politic slants. There was a lot of fuss over that too.

Q: why should the hall of fame ban anyone?

A: because its their right.

if a friend comes to my house and inexplicably spits on the floor, do i put up with it?
or do i yell at them, kick them out, and never have them over again?

the hall of fame has rules. you break the rules, you aren't allowed in.
exceptions should not be made just because you have nice stats.

Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He is one of the greatest players ever in baseball, but since the comissoner has all power, Rose is on the ineligible list. Anybody on the inelgible list may not be elected to the hall. Therefore it is up to the MLB and not the Hall of Fame. But the reason Rose should not be banned is he did nothing to inhibit the games. Gambling might be bad in some peoples eyes, but you put a man in the Hall of Fame for his on field ability not wheter he was a good guy or not. Ty Cobb is suppsosedly one of the biggest jerks ever where is he?

I'm trying to figure out why some of the posters here can't understand why the baseball establishment takes such a hard line about gambling.

Gambling, throwing games, and point shaving almost destroyed baseball in the early 20th Century and college basketball in the mid-1950s. Is this something you all don't know about or just think is somehow unimportant?

What other rules of MLB do you disagree with?

I've got an idea... Make up a Cereal League Baseball and if you can get sports writers to bother with you, you can have your own Hall of Fame.

Right, kick the person out of the league. But, to then turn around and disavow the accomplishments of that person is just retarded. That the part I can't understand.

I'm not a big "rules person" but you open up a real pandoras box when you decide to discriminate against someone because of a vice they may have.

When we find out Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa among others have been using steroids, are they going to be on the ineligible list too ?
If they are baseball out to ban itself for doing its best imitation of an ostrich.

I would argue that, once baseball gets its act together on steroids, a new rule should make it clear that players who use 'em will be banned. Henry Aaron hit his homers without the benefit of drugs. Why should it be broken by Bonds, if he does use them?

As for your dislike of rules, Cereal, it explains a lot here. Professional sports have rules, you see, to make the game fair to all. It's a basic concept.

i've read that most hall of famers don't want rose reinstated.
two that seem to be in favor are ex-teammates joe morgan & mike schmidt.

McGentrix, can you think of any other group where you don't have to be a "member in good standing" before you can get accolades? Anyway, his accomplishments haven't been erased, he's just not been voted into the HofF and won't be.

Cereal -- it is not a discrimination because it is a rule for everyone He knew about the rule ahead of time and chose over and over again to flout that rule. It's also not because it is a "vice." He could bet on anything else, just not MLB. Nobody was holding their nose because he wanted to gamble. Just what he wanted to gamble on.

Why tell me, tell Gaylord Perry.

Don't confuse the spitball (I assume that's your point re Perry) with gambling. The spitball was legal during the early years of baseball. I agree that it shouldn't be allowed, but it's within the range of what a player can try to get away with, along with other pitching and batting tricks. There are penalties for getting caught, as there should be.

What Rose did is hardly in that category.

So it's ok to punish for gambling just not for cheating like doctoring baseballs and corking bats!! ..... I see

Shoeless Joe Jackson was found innocent of betting on the world series and has a lifetime batting average 50 points higher than Rose, and he's still on the ineligible list. How do you rationalize that one ?

Try this: It's illegal to jaywalk, and it's illegal to murder. But the penalties for these crimes are different.

Same as the spitball and gambling in baseball. Does that help?

Not really. Last time I checked gambling wasn't illegal and murder still is.

Now if you were to equate pitchers throwing at batters heads (instead of gambling) with attempted murder I could understand the reasoning, but hey that's just part of the game. Doesn't matter if you end the guys career (ala Tony Conigliaro) you won't get punished. But don't bet on the Lakers game and get caught you'll get a year in a federal pen.

I was making an analogy, Cereal. One set for rules for everyone (no murder or jaywalking) and a special set of rules for baseball players (no gambling on baseball, no spitballs). Different penalties for breaking those rules.

Various cultures have different laws, too. Hell, even states have different laws. Not to hard to grasp, is it?