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Prove your own free will!

 
 
Render
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 05:32 pm
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

theres alot saying we have no free will, like
an omnipotent god who has a hand in everything,
the butterfly affect, plus the chaos theory,
rules,
your mom taking away xbox if you dont do as she says.
so does free will exist? prove it.

You mention two different kinds of free will, that in a metaphysical and/or scientific approach, and from a psychological basis. In the latter example, of course we have free will. But metaphysically speaking, i have not a clue.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 07:08 pm
@Render,
so im right in saying that free will does not exist...?
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 01:26 am
@hamilton,
You don't seem to have a good concept of what freewill really is.
It doesn't really matter what restrictions are placed upon it, by the material world. Your mind is free to take whichever course you choose, within those restrictions.
It's a cop-out to use the necessity for acceptance as an excuse to shirk responsibility for self.
Freewill is not the ability to do whatever one wants, it is the ability to become something better than one's past.
The attitude, with which one meets life each day, is entirely the result of that ones own choice, thus freewill, ignorance is no excuse.

You seem to be confusing freedom of action with freewill.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 03:04 am
@hamilton,
You can's say "free will doesn't exist". Well, you can say it, but it doesn't make any sense. "Free will" is a perspective, a way to categorize the experience of being human. You might as well stand up and say that "right and left" don't exist. It just doesn't make sense.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 06:03 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

You can's say "free will doesn't exist". Well, you can say it, but it doesn't make any sense. "Free will" is a perspective, a way to categorize the experience of being human. You might as well stand up and say that "right and left" don't exist. It just doesn't make sense.

i guess your thinking im grabing at straws here, but because of the butterfly affect and the chaos theory, in the way that one action leads to another, because conditions were correct for that, but we dont have a choice in our experiance, what ever it is. i may have been fated to type this, just as you were to type that.
Cyracuz
 
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Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 09:05 am
@hamilton,
If you prefer to understand your life in terms of not having choices, that is up to you. But regardless of what you think, be it that fate dictates or that there is free-will vs determinism, these are merely perspectives. They are ways to understand our experience, and as such are not subject to the question of wether or not they exist.
Like I said, it is similar to saying "left and right do not exist", which is just silly. It is not a matter of "existence".
Fil Albuquerque
 
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Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 11:53 am
@Cyracuz,
...is that a matter of fact or is that subjected to interpretation ?
...to where I stand it certainly is true that you think that such things are a matter of perspective, that is, it exists such kind of thoughts on that regard on your mind !
G H
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 02:35 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Re: Cyracuz (Post 4617759)
...is that a matter of fact or is that subjected to interpretation ?
...to where I stand it certainly is true that you think that such things are a matter of perspective, that is, it exists such kind of thoughts on that regard on your mind !

That now common cliche for eluding its once tooted contradiction: "There are no absolutes except this one!" Wink
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 09:34 pm

determination defined ;

that which changes you physically and/or mentally with NO possibility of you changing the out come

agree or disagree

arguments
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 09:58 pm

free-will defined ;

that which has been fundamentally determined but acts and thinks outside the box

but how that is determined think outside the determined box and hence give free-will ?

by thought

but thought could be argued to be based on genetic determination , hmmm... the delema

sooo.. , we get to intellicual genetic potenial determination , so that genetics are the determination

then we add psychology , emotion

which are also genetic , fundamentally

which leaves THE WILL



hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 May, 2011 07:13 pm
@north,
north wrote:


free-will defined ;

that which has been fundamentally determined but acts and thinks outside the box

but how that is determined think outside the determined box and hence give free-will ?

by thought

but thought could be argued to be based on genetic determination , hmmm... the delema

sooo.. , we get to intellicual genetic potenial determination , so that genetics are the determination

then we add psychology , emotion

which are also genetic , fundamentally

which leaves THE WILL




so whats the WILL determined by?
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 05:28 pm
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:

north wrote:


free-will defined ;

that which has been fundamentally determined but acts and thinks outside the box

but how that is determined think outside the determined box and hence give free-will ?

by thought

but thought could be argued to be based on genetic determination , hmmm... the delema

sooo.. , we get to intellicual genetic potenial determination , so that genetics are the determination

then we add psychology , emotion

which are also genetic , fundamentally

which leaves THE WILL

so whats the WILL determined by?

Good question, and I see there were no good answers :-)
0 Replies
 
Jack of Hearts
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 05:43 pm
@hamilton,
Purposely smash your thumb with a hammer, and not only will you prove your free will, but may also recognize the genesis of seeking such proof.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 12:12 pm
I will consider a valid proof of free will if someone can invent a totally new geometry into this world say for instance creating a line which is neither curved or flat nor an interjection of both...common make something really new that doesn't follow necessarily from something else !
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 08:29 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I will consider a valid proof of free will if someone can invent a totally new geometry into this world say for instance creating a line which is neither curved or flat nor an interjection of both...common make something really new that doesn't follow necessarily from something else !
I think you're requiring more than is possible.
I consider it a valid proof of free will anytime an uninfluenced choice is made.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 08:39 pm
@Pasture Timmy,
That is precisely what I am asking of you, a choice without any real world influence...go on a build in an alternative without recurring to what there is already...bring in a new geometry to reality n prove yourself the solely cause of it. You can't because all you have is borrowed n caused beyond your own simplistic recognition of willingness. ...you see choices have reasons, and wills refer to needs, even when the only urge is to counter your adversary in an argument so to prove you are free...Accessing that you will something is hardly any more then accessing you have a need for something...confusing the recognition of needs with control is very very naive although itself an understandable comforting convenient illusion.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 09:03 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
you know why authorship, intellectual property protection rights babbling and the likes is now seen as old fashioned XX century uniformed dinosaur mumbo jumbo who often is in the way of growth and development ? ...precisely because sciences like psychology came to learn copy cat is a very energy efficient way of passing down knowledge and that all the world does it...go figure speaking in learning the obvious...people edit ideas with ideas, they mix and experiment copying what works here n there so something new emerges, but they never invent something really new, something like a new geometry...had they done that and I would gladly concede in a blink of an eye humans beings are indeed free willing inventors of reality.
...now the factual matter, the real state of affairs, is that choices are sorted by prioritizing needs in a very complex unconscious brain process where willing emerges with a pre established outcome.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Nov, 2013 07:06 pm
Quote:
Hamilton said: theres alot saying we have no free will, like
an omnipotent god who has a hand in everything...

For the record there's zilch in the Bible that says we don't have free will or that God knows exactly what we'll do.
In fact God used Abraham as an example when he told him to kill his son, and as Abraham raised the knife to stab him, God said-
"Do not lay a hand on the boy, do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God" (Genesis 22:12)

In other words God didn't know before the test what Abraham would do.
Same for the rest of us in our daily lives, God has no idea who'll make it through the pearlies and who won't, so he leaves it entirely up to us to give it our best shot.
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Nov, 2013 09:49 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

"there's zilch in the Bible that says we don't have free will or that God knows exactly what we'll do.
Does God have free will?
Could God have chosen to know exactly what everyone would do?
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

God has no idea who'll make it through the pearlies and who won't, so he leaves it entirely up to us to give it our best shot.
When God created humans, did he have free will to choose the level of ability that humans would have to "make it through the pearlies"?

0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Nov, 2013 10:10 pm
Quote:
Pasture Timmy said: Does God have free will?
Could God have chosen to know exactly what everyone would do?
When God created humans, did he have free will to choose the level of ability that humans would have to "make it through the pearlies"?

All we know is that God created the world as a "test", like a proving ground or assault course-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)
Saul was a cruel bounty hunter rounding up early christians for punishment, but he later changed his name to Paul and became a Christian himself, so if he can see the light, so can others.
I was always a rebellious sort so it was easy for me to reject the stupid world, but for others it might not be so easy.
And don't forget Satan is on the prowl injecting poison into our minds to try to sabotage our efforts, it's what he DOES-
"The devil prowls round like a roaring lion" (1 Peter 5:8 )
 

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