America's education failure and unions

I wonder what makes all you Americans think the Finnish education system would work in America? Finland probably has a very different culture to the American culture.
That doesn't mean I don't think all education systems could learn from the Finnish.

And what bout other countries that rank highly according to PISA? If you look at the top ten countries then there are probably several ways used to acheive good school education. It's not necessarily one size fits all. What works for Finland might not wor for the US.

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@Quincy,

Quincy wrote:

I wonder what makes all you Americans think the Finnish education system would work in America? Finland probably has a very different culture to the American culture.

In both countries, childern need to learn stuff. And in both countries, the government hires teachers to teach them stuff. What part of that process would be culture-dependant?

Quincy wrote:

What works for Finland might not wor for the US.

Let's find out then!

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@Quincy,

I think the competitive nature of Americans would prevent a Finnish style of education from ever taking hold. (I mean, look -- we're wringing our hands over being "beat" by the Finnish. I doubt the Finnish are gloating over "besting" us.)

One thing I've learned from the last 5 years of dealing with the public schools is that it doesn't address the way my son learns. Their answer was to try to make my home more like school.... actually, to try to make my home like the bad parts of school with endless drills and busywork instead of spending time on the things which honestly were interesting and educational for my son.

After countless emails and a loooooong meeting with the school I declared my home "Finland". We're all much happier here.

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Thomas, you seem to have ignored what I wrote:

Quincy wrote:

That doesn't mean I don't think all education systems could learn from the Finnish.

And saying

Thomas wrote:

In both countries, childern need to learn stuff. And in both countries, the government hires teachers to teach them stuff. What part of that process would be culture-dependant?

is being rather simplistic about the whole matter.
"...teachers to teach them stuff". Precisely what I am talking about: how teachers teach.

Thomas wrote:

Let's find out then!

Indeed, I agree, see the first time I quoted myself in this post.

If you look at how some Asian countries go about acheiving excellence in schooling it is largely because the children are diligent and hard-working. Therefore it appears to me an Asian style of education would not work in free-and-happy America, but that is not to say you cannot learn anything from those countries.

Similarly for Finland. The Fins have a certain character and culture, and their education system suits them very well. Its not likely if you simply transplanted the Finnish education system it would do as well. Again, that is not to say that I don't think we can all learn things from Finland.

My point is: don't take a simplistic view of education.

1 Reply

@H2O MAN,

How come none of you have addressed H2oman's scintillating argument?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Allwet created an argument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnDT1sENhLY&feature=fvst

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

But they said an argument is an intellectual process.

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@Thomas,

Ell students are supported in various ways - there isn't one method. Some districts with high numbers of foreign language speakers have separate classrooms where students are taught both subject content and English language at the same time (up to maybe 4 classes per day). Others are given a boost by spending a period a day with a teacher who assists them. There are also 4 (I think) levels in the process of language acquisition - services depend on where the student is along the spectrum of acquisition.

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@littlek,

I hope that they actually have teachers that understand how to teach a language, LittleK and that these students are subjected to the same fare given regular US students.

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@JTT,

The teachers are trained in how to teach these specific students, not a second language. The idea is to graduate them as fast as possible so that they can be mainstreamed into regular classes.

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@littlek,

That sounds a little scary, LittleK. Since the intent is language acquisition, what could they possibly be trained in that didn't have that as the focus.

1 Reply

@Quincy,

Quincy wrote:

Thomas, you seem to have ignored what I wrote:

Quincy wrote:
That doesn't mean I don't think all education systems could learn from the Finnish.

Fair enough. I probably didn't pay enough attention to that.

Quincy wrote:

Thomas wrote:
In both countries, childern need to learn stuff. And in both countries, the government hires teachers to teach them stuff. What part of that process would be culture-dependant?

is being rather simplistic about the whole matter.

Thanks! I take that as a compliment. Unlike you, I believe that keeping thoughts simple is a virtue, and that pointing out how complex and culture-dependent things are is usually an evasion. But perhaps that's a point to discuss some other time.

Quincy wrote:

If you look at how some Asian countries go about acheiving excellence in schooling it is largely because the children are diligent and hard-working. Therefore it appears to me an Asian style of education would not work in free-and-happy America, but that is not to say you cannot learn anything from those countries.

Or maybe you're just cultivating simplistic prejudices against American children.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

I'm not the one who said America's education system is failing.

1 Reply

@JTT,

The training is based in language acquisition. They teach language skills (spelling rules, grammar, composition, etc). They also teach the content in a scaffolded way (teach the new vocab first, add pictures to vocab words, modified texts, etc).

1 Reply

@littlek,

Quote:

The training is based in language acquisition. They teach language skills (spelling rules, grammar, composition, etc). They also teach the content in a scaffolded way (teach the new vocab first, add pictures to vocab words, modified texts, etc).

I know that you haven't been able to describe it as fully as one would like, LittleK, but it still sounds a little scary. Teaching grammar doesn't teach language skills. Teaching spelling rules doesn't facilitate language acquisition.

Kids, three years old to mid teens acquire the majority of language structure, some in a few months time, most others within a year without any instruction in grammar when they are placed in a natural language environment.

There is no richer language environment than children being with other children. Back not so very long ago, kids whose parents went abroad for business were placed directly into the classroom. As I mentioned above, these kids were pretty much fluent within 6 months. Most were classroom functional within a month or so.

I wonder how these people can teach grammar considering what most have been taught is grammar.

Quote:

They also teach the content in a scaffolded way (teach the new vocab first, add pictures to vocab words, modified texts, etc).

That part sounds good.

1 Reply

@Quincy,

Quincy wrote:

I'm not the one who said America's education system is failing.

That's fair enough, too.

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@JTT,

These kids learn social language quite quickly from their peers. They learn academic language in the separate settings.

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