Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

@Renaldo Dubois,

And in what kind of Bizzaro World does "I don't know" equate to "waterboarding gave us the information?"

Oh, yeah. As I said, facts will bounce off of you, and you will continue to spout your ideological agenda long past the point where anyone cares.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

There has been no denial that info was gathered from waterboarding.

There's been no denial that space aliens from Uranus gave us bin Laden's location, either. Coincidence?

(And I'm sure info was gathered from waterboarding; I just doubt that it was anything particularly useful. Perhaps you should distinguish whether you mean info or intel. Intel is information, but information is not necessarily intel.)

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@DrewDad,

I don't have an agenda. It's quite obvious you do.

And by the same token, saying "I don't know" doesn't equate to "waterboarding wasn't used". I have an open mind and it looks like the jury is still out.

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@DrewDad,

Info that led to the killing of Osama. The entire template on the left requires that no useful intelligence is gathered from waterboarding. If that template proves to be cracked, then the entire facade is brought down. I have nothing to lose. You do.

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

However in this instance it's not just an abstract ethical debate...

My point happened to be that it should be an ethical debate.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

The entire template on the left requires that no useful intelligence is gathered from waterboarding.

That's Robert's concern, but as he demonstrated, that argument is false. There are both practical and ethical reasons for not using torture.

Even if the practical reason is not valid, the ethical reason remains.

And it has not been demonstrated that the practical reason is not valid. Even if some piece of intel in the investigation was gathered via waterboarding, there is no evidence that the same intel would not have been developed through other means. And there is strong evidence that waterboarding taints and slows investigations.

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@DrewDad,

Thanks for proving my point.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Bizzaro World, as I said.

Mr. Teflon Brain. Facts just don't stick.

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@DrewDad,

You will never accept it even if it is true. Like I said, it goes against everything you base your beliefs on. You just cannot accept it. Your mind is indoctrinated and shut. And here I thought the left prided itself on having such open minds.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

Never accept what? That torture might be an acceptable technique?

I've investigated that idea from two directions, and found it wanting in both cases.

If you were to provide some actual data on how often torture is effective, vs. the efficacy of alternate investigative methods, you might be able to have someone take you seriously.

All you have here is, "maybe torture worked this one time, a little, kinda sorta" which is hardly a compelling argument.

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@DrewDad,

If it comes out that waterboarding emphatically led to info that killed Osama, what are you going to do?

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@Renaldo Dubois,

That's a pretty big if.

Since my research shows that torture is a net negative, I'd have to say I'd be disappointed because it will encourage people to try torturing folks again.

A single example of a case where torture generated usable intel is just that: an outlier, which doesn't invalidate the rest of the data.

Torture weakens us, by undermining the legal and ethical principals of civilized people, while strengthening our enemies, by providing propaganda fodder.

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@DrewDad,

Think of it this way:

You go to a casino, and put nickles in the slots. Nickle after nickle after nickle. Then you get a big payoff, but it doesn't equal everything you put in up to that point. Then you put in nickle after nickle after nickle, get a payoff, but it doesn't equal what you've put in.

Do you keep playing?

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

I don't agree with you at all. I do not put waterboarding in the category of torture. I know the administration does and others do, but there is actually no harm done to the person. Everyone who has had it done to them recovers. No one dies from waterboarding. No one has permanent physical injuries from waterboarding.

I do not believe it weakens us. What weakens the USA is appeasement such as yours which emoboldens our enemy. Appeasement plays right into their hands of Sharia and a world caliphate.

Any means that saves lives and kills terrorists is fine by me. Saving lives is more important than what means we use to get that info.

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@DrewDad,

I like to put it this way.

A group of thugs take you out of your car containing your two kids. While they are taking away your kids in your car, you happen to grab one of them.

What are you willing to do to that thug to get your children back? How are you going to make him talk?

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I don't agree with you at all.

I don't care.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I do not put waterboarding in the category of torture. I know the administration does and others do,

Random Dude on the Internet is not exactly an overwhelming qualification for discussing torture.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

but there is actually no harm done to the person. Everyone who has had it done to them recovers. No one dies from waterboarding. No one has permanent physical injuries from waterboarding.

Well, you're welcome to your opinion of what constitutes torture. Don't expect me to find it compelling, though.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I do not believe it weakens us. What weakens the USA is appeasement such as yours which emoboldens our enemy. Appeasement plays right into their hands of Sharia and a world caliphate.

Lol. Taking the crazy to 11, are you?

Please explain how, "I prefer interrogation techniques that work" = "appeasement"

World caliphate? Really? Paranoid, much?

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Any means that saves lives and kills terrorists is fine by me. Saving lives is more important than what means we use to get that info.

Good luck with that. I bet you just follow orders, too.

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@DrewDad,

I can always tell when a lefty has lost. They take my posts and selectively edit it to fit their responses. You also conveniently didn't respond to my hypothetical and what YOU would do. Come back when use common sense instead of your indoctrination.

Your last sentence was cowardly. I would expect nothing less from a smarmy lefty.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

I suspect I'd call the police. The have the personnel, firepower, training, and information to be much more effective than I would be acting alone.

It's also a rather ridiculous scenario; I think you've seen too many action movies.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

DrewDad wrote:

<yawn>

Your perfervid zeal to defend and promote your ideology is hackneyed, at this point.

You will repeat right wing talking points endlessly, even long after they've been shown to be empty of fact and/or persuasive value.

You will ignore facts, insights, and nuance.

You will respond vacuously or venomously.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Please explain how, "I prefer interrogation techniques that work" = "appeasement"

1 Reply

Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

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