19
   

Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2011 06:29 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
So why are all these criminals walking around free?


Because "honest, law abiding" people like you allow them to.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2011 06:36 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
Oh my. How terrible.


That doesn't even begin to describe the evil that your governments have done, Renaldo.

Quote:

MASS MURDER

On August 6, 1945, a uranium bomb 3-235, 20 kilotons yield, was exploded 1850 feet in the air above Hiroshima, for maximum explosive effect. It devastated four square miles, and killed 140,000 of the 255,000 inhabitants.

In Hiroshima's Shadows, we find a statement by a doctor who treated some of the victims; p.415, Dr. Shuntaro Hida: "It was strange to us that Hiroshima had never been bombed, despite the fact that B-29 bombers flew over the city every day. Only after the war did I come to know that Hiroshima, according to American archives, had been kept untouched in order to preserve it as a target for the use of nuclear weapons. Perhaps, if the American administration and its military authorities had paid sufficient regard to the terrible nature of the fiery demon which mankind had discovered and yet knew so little about its consequences, the American authorities might never have used such a weapon against the 750,000 Japanese who ultimately became its victims."


AMERICAN MILITARY AUTHORITIES SAY ATOMIC BOMB UNNECESSARY

The most authoritative Air Force unit during World War II was the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, which selected targets on the basis of need, and which analyzed the results for future missions. In Hiroshima's Shadow, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey report of July 1, 1946 states, "The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender. The Emperor, the lord privy seal, the prime minister, the foreign minister, and the navy minister had decided as early as May 1945 that the war should be ended even if it meant acceptance of defeat on allied terms.... It is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to December 1, 1945 and in all probability prior to November 1, 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

http://www.whale.to/b/mullins8.html

Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2011 06:39 pm
@JTT,
Oh, I see. So does that make us all accomplises? Are the American people war criminals?
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2011 06:42 pm
@JTT,
The Japanese were warned and asked to surrender. They refused. They were warned again and they refused after the first bomb. They surrendered after the second bomb. I would blame the leaders of Japan for deliberately sacrificing their people in a lost cause.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2011 06:57 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
The Japanese were warned and asked to surrender. They refused. They were warned again and they refused after the first bomb. They surrendered after the second bomb. I would blame the leaders of Japan for deliberately sacrificing their people in a lost cause.


Why do you persist in parading your ignorance, Renaldo, when you could just read?


In the introduction to Hiroshima's Shadows, we find that "One of the myths of Hiroshima is that the inhabitants were warned by leaflets that an atomic bomb would be dropped. The leaflets Leonard Nadler and William P. Jones recall seeing in the Hiroshima Museum in 1960 and 1970 were dropped after the bombing. This happened because the President's Interim Committee on the Atomic Bomb decided on May 31 'that we could not give the Japanese any warning'. Furthermore, the decision to drop 'atomic' leaflets on Japanese cities was not made until August 7, the day after the Hiroshima bombing. They were not dropped until August 10, after Nagasaki had been bombed. We can say that the residents of Hiroshima received no advance warning about the use of the atomic bomb. On June 1, 1945, a formal and official decision was taken during a meeting of the so-called Interim Committee not to warn the populations of the specific target cities. James Byrnes and Oppenheimer insisted that the bombs must be used without prior warning."


"But, Mr. Secretary," said Alger Hiss, "no one can ignore the terrible power of this weapon." "Nevertheless," said Stettinius, "our entire postwar program depends on terrifying the world with the atomic bomb." "To accomplish that goal," said John Foster Dulles, "you will need a very good tally. I should say a million." "Yes," replied Stettinius, "we are hoping for a million tally in Japan. But if they surrender, we won't have anything." "Then you have to keep them in the war until the bomb is ready," said John Foster Dulles. "That is no problem. Unconditional surrender." "They won't agree to that," said Stettinius. "They are sworn to protect the Emperor." "Exactly," said John Foster Dulles. "Keep Japan in the war another three months, and we can use the bomb on their cities; we will end this war with the naked fear of all the peoples of the world, who will then bow to our will."

Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2011 07:12 pm
@JTT,
The Japanese were warned by the President of the USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InTPC6oylK8

Your dishonesty is showing. I put links for everything I post. What are you hiding?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 01:44 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Mr. Dubois said

Oh, for sure. Fox news is total propaganda. You're too smart for this place.

That wasn't the point I was making, I was saying it's not even very good propaganda. The Iranians are better at doing propaganda than Murdoch. When Press TV reports about how indiginous people in the Amazon are being displaced by American lead multinationals you know it's true. When O' Reilly opens his mouth you know it's total bollocks.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 03:15 am
@JTT,
I think you're in danger of losing the real focus of the arguement, which is that power corrupts. This can happen on a micro level, where Gaddafi uses his military to crush his own people. It also happens on a macro level between powerful nations and their less powerful neighbours. There's a lot of news coverage over here about Liz's visit to Ireland, the first visit by a UK monarch since independence. In the UK we're still coming to terms with the legacy of Irish Colonialism, and the elephant in the room is the partition of Northern Ireland.

When democracy swept Latin America in the 1990's one of the consequences was a vocalisation of anti- American feeling, because America had for years crushed the aspirations of the majority in Latin America for their own interests. Nicaragua is a case in point. However over in Europe, Poland sees America as a mainstay against Russian imperialism. America may be hated in Latin America but Russia is hated in Eastern Europe.

I have to disagree with you over Kosovo. I supported the allied action, our news channels were filled with daily reports on how the Milosevic regime was committing war crimes and human rights abuses on a grand scale. The allied intervention stopped that. The British involvement in Sierra Leone kept a democratically elected government in power, and stopped the advance of a brutal bunch of thugs who had a habit of chopping the limbs off children. I consider those interventions just, and not fuelled by a desire for greater Western influence, but because of appalling human rights abuses.

Iraq was unjust and illegal, and the continuing unrest in the country is symptomatic of that, as the democracy in the Balkans, and Sierra Leone is symptomatic of the good properly focussed liberal intervention can do. I think you're in danger of developing tunnel vision, that your desire to expose the crimes of America allows you to turn a blind eye to crimes of other regimes.

As for WW2, Hiroshima did not win the war, the war had already been won. It shortened the war. Japan had shown that it would not take the defence of the home islands lightly, the bloodshed would have been every bit as bad as either of the two bombs, and it wouldn't have been confined to the Japanese. Japan and Nazi Germany were the aggressors in this war. If I have any criticism of America's record in WW2 it's that they entered the war two years too late. The uranium used in the bombs was Nazi uranium, send to Japan by submarine in the closing days of the war. It was only the surrender of Nazi Germany that put it in the hands of the Americans. Be in no doubt that if Nazi Germany or Japan had had the bomb they would have used it.

One thing about Hiroshima and Nagasaki though is that it gave a clear demonstration of the horrors of nuclear conflict. I believe that demonstration is one of the reasons they have not been used since. Stalin or Trueman may have been a lot less squeamish about using the bomb if they just thought it would be like another Dresden.

Whenever you feel angry about America in particular click on the link below. This link is only possible because of America, and I think it's one of the most beautiful things in creation.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 10:07 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I think you're in danger of losing the real focus of the arguement, which is that power corrupts.


That is, and has been precisely my focus, Izzy. I know that power corrupts, the millions dead attest to that fact. My focus is in revealing the hypocrisy that is, at this juncture of history, American made.

I don't know if the UK made as much of a show as the US does when it was exploiting the poor of the world and frankly, I don't much care. The UK's time as evil exploiter is done. It's only role, as you've noted, is as a bit player in America's crimes.

The article to follow explains it well. Consider who it is on the planet that is causing the greatest harm. This isn't anything new. The US has been in this business since its inception. Its 1823 Monroe Doctrine was a "keep your hands off our little gold pot" warning to Europe.

The US and the UK set the pattern for both Nazi and Japanese aggression. We hear a lot about the Rape of Nanking but none about the Rape of the Philippines. Both Japan and Germany simply followed the pattern set by the rapacious behaviors of the US, in Latin America and the Far East, and the UK in their numerous adventures.

There is much to discuss in your post. But it's time for some chow.

Quote:
The Imperial Mythology of World War II

An Ethical Blank Check

By RICHARD DRAYTON

In 1945, as at the end of all wars, the victor powers spun the conflict's history to serve the interests of their elites. Wartime propaganda thus achieved an extraordinary afterlife. As Vladimir Putin showed over the weekend, the Great Patriotic War remains a key political resource in Russia. In Britain and the US, too, a certain idea of the second world war is enthusiastically kept alive and less flattering memories suppressed.

Five years ago, Robert Lilly, a distinguished American sociologist, prepared a book based on military archives. Taken by Force is a study of the rapes committed by American soldiers in Europe between 1942 and 1945. He submitted his manuscript in 2001. But after September 11, its US publisher suppressed it, and it first appeared in 2003 in a French translation.

We know from Anthony Beevor about the sexual violence unleashed by the Red Army, but we prefer not to know about mass rape committed by American and British troops. Lilly suggests a minimum of 10,000 American rapes. Contemporaries described a much wider scale of unpunished sex crime. Time Magazine reported in September 1945:

"Our own army and the British army along with ours have done their share of looting and raping ... we too are considered an army of rapists."

The British and American publics share a sunny view of the second world war. The evil of Auschwitz and Dachau, turned inside out, clothes the conflict in a shiny virtue. Movies, popular histories and political speeches frame the war as a symbol of Anglo-American courage, with the Red Army's central role forgotten. This was, we believe, "a war for democracy". Americans believe that they fought the war to rescue the world. For apologists of the British Empire, such as Niall Ferguson, the war was an ethical bath where the sins of centuries of conquest, slavery and exploitation were expiated. We are marked forever as "the good guys"and can all happily chant "Two world wars and one world cup."

All this seems innocent fun, but patriotic myths have sharp edges. The "good war" against Hitler has underwritten 60 years of warmaking. It has become an ethical blank cheque for British and US power. We claim the right to bomb, to maim, to imprison without trial on the basis of direct and implicit appeals to the war against fascism.

When we fall out with such tyrant friends as Noriega, Milosevic or Saddam we rebrand them as "Hitler". In the "good war" against them, all bad things become forgettable "collateral damage". The devastation of civilian targets in Serbia or Iraq, torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo, the war crime of collective punishment in Falluja, fade to oblivion as the "price of democracy".

Our democratic imperialism prefers to forget that fascism had important Anglo-American roots. Hitler's dream was inspired, in part, by the British Empire. In eastern Europe, the Nazis hoped to make their America and Australia, where ethnic cleansing and slave labour created a frontier for settlement. In western Europe, they sought their India from which revenues, labour and soldiers might be extracted.

American imperialism in Latin America gave explicit precedents for Germany's and Japan's claims of supremacy in their neighbouring regions. The British and Americans were key theorists of eugenics and had made racial segregation respectable. The concentration camp was a British invention, and in Iraq and Afghanistan the British were the first to use air power to repress partisan resistance. The Luftwaffe - in its assault on Guernica, and later London and Coventry - paid homage to Bomber Harris's terror bombing of the Kurds in the 1920s.

We forget, too, that British and US elites gave aid to the fascists. President Bush's grandfather, prosecuted for "trading with the enemy" in 1942, was one of many powerful Anglo-Americans who liked Mussolini and Hitler and did what they could to help. Appeasement as a state policy was only the tip of an iceberg of practical aid to these dictatorships. Capital and technology flowed freely, and fascist despots received dignified treatment in Washington and London. Henry Ford made Hitler birthday gifts of 50,000 marks.

We least like to remember that our side also committed war crimes in the 1940s. The destruction of Dresden, a city filled with women, children, the elderly and the wounded, and with no military significance, is only the best known of the atrocities committed by our bombers against civilian populations. We know about the notorious Japanese abuse of prisoners of war, but do not remember the torture and murder of captured Japanese. Edgar Jones, an "embedded" Pacific war correspondent, wrote in 1946: "'We shot prisoners in cold blood, wiped out hospitals, strafed lifeboats, killed or mistreated enemy civilians, finished off the enemy wounded, tossed the dying into a hole with the dead, and in the Pacific boiled flesh off enemy skulls to make table ornaments."

After 1945, we borrowed many fascist methods. Nuremberg only punished a handful of the guilty; most walked free with our help. In 1946, Project Paperclip secretly brought more than 1,000 Nazi scientists to the US. Among their ranks were Kurt Blome, who had tested nerve gas at Auschwitz, and Konrad Schaeffer, who forced salt into victims at Dachau. Other experiments at mind control via drugs and surgery were folded into the CIA's Project Bluebird. Japan's Dr Shiro Ishii, who had experimented with prisoners in Manchuria, came to Maryland to advise on bio-weapons. Within a decade of British troops liberating Belsen, they were running their own concentration camps in Kenya to crush the Mau Mau. The Gestapo's torture techniques were borrowed by the French in Algeria, and then disseminated by the Americans to Latin American dictatorships in the 60s and 70s. We see their extension today in the American camps in Cuba and Diego Garcia.

War has a brutalising momentum. This is the moral of Taken By Force, which shows how American soldiers became increasingly indiscriminate in their sexual violence and military authorities increasingly lax in its prosecution. Even as we remember the evils of nazism, and the courage of those who defeated it, we should begin to remember the second world war with less self- satisfaction. We might, in particular, learn to distrust those who use it to justify contemporary warmongering.

Richard Drayton is senior lecturer in history at Cambridge University. He can be reached at: [email protected]


Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 12:37 pm
@JTT,
Totally ridiculous. The USA is to blame for Japan bombing Pearl Harbor?????? Who is responsible for Japan rolling over China and the Phillipines?

Idiot.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 12:56 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
Who is responsible for Japan rolling over China and the Phillipines?


Japan is most certainly responsible for China, Ren, at that particular juncture in history, but it's terribly hypocritical of you to be wondering about who is responsible for rolling over the Philippines?

Yes, the US and other western nations had a great deal of responsibility for the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US wasn't concerned with what Japan was doing in China to the Chinese. It was terribly concerned that it was going to be cut out of the action.

Actually, it's terribly hypocritical of you to be wondering about China too, but all this hypocrisy comes from your ignorance of history.

Quote:
The big Japanese atrocities in fact had already taken place. There were plenty more to come, but the major ones, the invasion of China, the rape of Nanking, the atrocities in Manchuria, and so on, had passed. Throughout that whole period the U.S. wasn't supportive, but it didn't oppose them very much.

The big issue for the United States was: will they let us in on the exploitation of China or will they do it by themselves? Will they close it off? Will they create a closed co-prosperity sphere or an open region in which we will have free access? If the latter, the United States was not going to oppose the Japanese conquest.

http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent03.htm

Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 05:51 pm
@JTT,
In my opinion, it's ignorance that blames the USA for an attack on the USA while not blaming China or the Phillipines for the attacks on them. Just because you hate the USA does not mean you are allowed to re-write history, you ignorant thing. You keep reading Chompsky and you're brain is gonna completely turn to mush. Funny stuff.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 06:00 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
In my opinion, it's ignorance that blames the USA for an attack on the USA while not blaming China or the Phillipines for the attacks on them.


Would that be a Miller Time opinion, Ren, because it's awfully close to that time of day when you said you get awfully confused? And this sentence, above is so confused as to be incomprehensible.

I've told you, I don't hate the US. It's folks like you who illustrate a hatred for the US by not holding its politicians to account for besmirching its ideals.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:49 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
DrewDad wrote:
You believe that Ben Sargent is lying about the letter from Leon Panetta?
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Yes. He has a history of lying. Duh!

So, a CIA spokesperson has confirmed the authenticity of the letter from Leon Panetta.

CIA chief’s letter confirms torture did not lead to Osama bin Laden

Quote:
A private letter from CIA chief Leon Panetta to Senator John McCain (R-AZ) confirms that the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques put in place by the Bush administration did not reveal intelligence about Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, the courier that eventually led the U.S. to Osama bin Laden.

The letter was obtained by The Washington Post and a CIA spokesperson confirmed its authenticity.

"Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002," the letter stated. "It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting."

"In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts," Panetta added. "This information was discovered through other intelligence means."

Former Bush officials and some Republicans have insisted that enhanced interrogation techniques like waterboarding resulted in information that eventually led to bin Laden's whereabouts.

Last week, Sen. McCain wrote an op-ed piece in the The Washington Post claiming that bin Laden's death should not be used to justify torture. In his article, he cited information he received from Panetta, but he did not release that information to the public.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 06:13 am
@DrewDad,
I don't think Mr. Dubois can answer you right now, he's probably tea bagging. Sorry I hope you're not eating right now.
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 07:44 am
@JTT,
Dennis Miller is pretty funny.

If you don't hate the USA then why do you blame the USA for things like the attack at Pearl Harbor. Do you blame the USA for the attack on 9/11?
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 08:00 am
Anyone remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XMr3QO2Sbc
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:33 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
The letter from Leon Panetta, stating that waterboarding was not significant in finding Osama bin Laden, has been confirmed as legitimate.

Are you willing to accept Leon Panetta as an expert, now, since you proffered him as one earlier when you thought it supported your premise?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:42 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
In my opinion, it's ignorance that blames the USA for an attack on the USA while not blaming China or the Phillipines[sic] for the attacks on them


If you could explain what you mean here, we could discuss it.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:43 pm
@DrewDad,
Sure. Obviously, someone in the administration told him to toe the party line.
 

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