19
   

Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

 
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:35 pm
@parados,
Sources indicate the WTC used A 588 “High-Strength Low-Alloy Structural Steel--AKA Corten-A

Mechanical properties

Mechanical Properties A588:

Tensile: 70 ksi min (4” and under), 67 ksi min (4”- 5”) 63 ksi min (Over 5”-8”)

Yield: 50 ksi min (4” and under), 46 ksi min (4”- 5”) 42 ksi min (Over 5”-8”)

Elongation: 16% min in 8” 19% min in 2” (for plates wider than 24”)

Chemical composition--

%C--0.12

%Si--0.25 to 0.75

%Mn--0.20 to 0.50

%P--0.07 to 0.15

%S--0.03

%Cr--0.50 to 1.25

%Cu--0.25 to 0.55

%V--

%Ni--0.65

The remainder is, of course, iron

Good weather resistant steel, probably as the result of the chrome and copper

As can be seen from the mechanical properties pretty flexible (no more than 16% in 8 inches)

Rap
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:40 pm
@Doubt doubt,
Doubt doubt wrote:

I dont know man I am a chemist so i never bought beams. im sure they have trace amounts of things added but i doubt your book sells 200ton beams WTC style. pretty sure thats made to order.

The beams might be made to order but the steel isn't. Structural steel is structural steel. It's ASTM 36 or 588

0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:49 pm
@Doubt doubt,
BS DoubleD in the your initial post you didn't even use units Celsius, fahrenheit, kelvin, Rankin, zippo--you just said a falacious 500 degrees
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:56 pm
@Doubt doubt,
The thing is, when you focus on this sort of conspiracy theory you start to lose sight of the real issues. So far this arguement has consisted of how feasable is the idea that the twin towers were simultaneously demolished at the same time they were struck by the two aeroplanes. I'm no scientist, but judging from the response of those who claim that they are, and by the highly technical nature of those postings, I'd say you've got a long way to go before you start convincing anyone.

Let's just say you're right. All we have as perpetrators are shadowy figures. These figures could be anyone, any organisation who stands to gain however tenously, financial political or whatever from the destruction of the two towers. If you don't have any tangible evidence realistically connecting real figures/organisations you're just chasing shadows.

There are real issues going on in the real world that aren't nebulous in any way. There is a terrorist organisation called Al Qaida, terrorists inspired by Al Qaida hijacked aeroplanes. Al Qaida still is a threat. There's a huge shitstorm raging in the middle East right now. All of this things are very important to the security of the whole world.

This thread was about whether or not torture is justified, or whether or not it even works. This is something really important. If 9/11 occured because of some all powerful illuminati, it lets the Bush administation off the hook, and allows them to brush their monumental incompetence under the carpet. It also gives credance to Al Qaida's propaganda that the West is waging war with the whole of Islam not just a bunch of criminals. If the 'zionist crusader' cause is prepared to destroy the twin towers just to occupy Moslem lands, then Bin Laden is a hero and a freedom fighter.

I don't know about you, but that's not a message I'm comfortable with.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:57 pm
This is an interesting take.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/05/the_road_to_bin_laden_went_thr.html
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 05:42 pm
@Doubt doubt,
At least I knew that metals aren't crystalline solids.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 05:50 pm
@Doubt doubt,
I said I wasn't a welder. I didn't say I couldn't weld.

What's wrong DD? Did the bad old poster show you that your knowledge of chemistry, thermodynamics, material science, and metallurgy is less than adequate and your best shot is ad hominem.

Rap

.

0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 05:53 pm
@djjd62,
It is Wittgenstein Wendsday--time for a Grolsch
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:19 pm
I'll have a Laughing Dog

http://www.laughingdogbrewing.com/
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:28 pm
@Doubt doubt,
DD have you ever done a simple beam analysis? You can Wood, steel, plastic, or any metal. Beam flexing is part of the analysis once you specify the support locations, the loading, and the moments and crunch the differential equations with the boundary conditions. The maximum deflection and the yield points pretty much pop out of the solution. It is all determined by material properties and when you through with the analysis.

If you haven't I would recommend taking basic differential equations, they usually include simple beam problems as practice problems.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:31 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
If I'm going domestic, Left Hand.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:33 pm
@raprap,
Where is the brewery?
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:37 pm
@izzythepush,
actually i'm a boddington's or mccaffery's man myself
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:40 pm
@raprap,
everybody knows it was the thermite paint, former navy seal, governor and current sporter of a haircut much like riff raff from rocky horror, jesse ventura will tell you so, in excruciating detail if you can stand to listen Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:41 pm
@parados,
Quote:
I see you have ignored the fact that a large plane hit the building JTT.


Not at all, P. First we had to see that the fire issue was bogus. The fires were neither intense or long lasting. Note carefully the temperatures that NIST says the steel THEY tested reached.

There wasn't any substantial weakening of the steel caused by the fires. The fires were weak and greatly spread out. Remember, each floor was roughly an acre in size and each floor was covered by 4 inches of concrete.

We can assume that the floors were pretty close to level so this fuel would have been spread out quite thin. In addition, I believe a great deal headed down the vertical shafts that were within the core area.

Just consider the thermal mass contained just within the concrete floors and their ability to hold heat.

And what of the south tower, which went down first. What would have brought it down faster than the north tower?

While you chew on that to formulate a response, let's have a look at the damage the planes were supposed to have made.



So, for example, a steel column with a factor of safety of 1.75 must support 1.75 times the anticipated design load before it begins to incur damage. While this value is typical of steel beams in general, the actual reserve strength of the steel columns in the WTC was higher. When NIST crunched the numbers for the 47 core columns of WTC-1 (in the impact zone, between the 93rd and 98th floors) it calculated that the factor of safety ranged from 1.6 to 2.8, the mean value being 2.1.[65] This means that the average core column in the impact zone of WTC-1 could support more than twice its design load before reaching the yield strength, i.e., the point where damage may begin to occur.

Note "begin to occur", Parados, not lead to catastrophic failure. Read on. .

It is important to realize that the factor of safety is not a threshold for collapse, but a value beyond which permanent damage may begin to occur. As the NIST report admits, even “after reaching the yield strength, structural steel components continue to possess considerable reserve capacity.”[66] This is why steel beams and columns typically do not fail in sudden fashion. The loss of strength is gradual. No doubt, this helps to explain why, although fires have ravaged many steel frame buildings over history, none had ever collapsed–––until 9/11–––nor has any since.

What all of this means, of course, is that even in the most improbable worst case, in which many or all WTC core columns lost half of their strength, there was still sufficient reserve capacity to support the building.

According to the NIST report, the outer wall’s factor of safety against wind shear on 9/11 was extraordinary, i.e., in the 10-11 range.[67] Why so high? The answer is simple: On the day of the attack there was essentially no wind, only a slight breeze.[68] For this same reason nearly all of the perimeter wall’s design capacity was available to help support the gravity load.

As the NIST report states, “On September 11, 2001 the wind loads were minimal, thus providing significantly more reserve for the exterior walls.”[69] When NIST crunched the numbers for a representative perimeter column in WTC-1 (column 151, between the 93rd and 98th floors), they arrived at a factor of safety of 5.7.[70] Assuming this average figure is a typical value we arrive at a reasonable estimate of the perimeter wall’s amazing reserve capacity.

Even if we subtract those columns severed/damaged by the impact of Flight 175, and the lost capacity due to the alleged (but unproven) buckling along the eastern perimeter wall, there was still a wide margin of safety, more than enough by several times over to support the outer wall’s share of the gravity load, with plenty to spare.[71]

The WTC’s tremendous reserve capacity was no secret. In 1964, four years before the start of construction, an article about the planned WTC appeared in the Engineering News-Record. The article declared that “live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than 2,000 percent before failure occurs.”[72]

A careful reading of the piece also gives insight into why the plane impacts were not fatal to the integrity of the outer wall.

The reason is simple: the perimeter columns were designed to function together as an enormous truss, specifically, a Vierendeel truss. The wall was inherently stable. After the plane impacts it behaved like an arch, simply transferring the load to the surrounding columns. As the 1964 article states,

“the WTC towers will have an inherent capacity to resist unforeseen calamities. This capacity stems from its Vierendeel wall system and is enhanced through the use of high-strength steels.”[73]

In short, NIST’s own data fails to support its conclusions about the cause of the WTC collapse. The official theory requires the fatal weakening of both sets of columns, and NIST came up short on both counts due to insufficient evidence. Indeed, I would call it woefully insufficient.

izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:47 pm
@djjd62,
For me it just has to be Czech. If I can't get Urquell Pilsner I like a bottle of original Czech budweiser. There's also some brilliant scrumpy farms just down the road from me.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:54 pm
@raprap,
Colorado
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 07:05 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
If the 'zionist crusader' cause is prepared to destroy the twin towers just to occupy Moslem lands, then Bin Laden is a hero and a freedom fighter.

I don't know about you, but that's not a message I'm comfortable with.


This is one of the most vital of fallacies that has been pushed, Izzy, but it's a red herring. Think about it. Have those countries ever been a threat to western nations? When have you worried about the Afghan Air Force bombing your pub, your town/city? Same even with the strongest Arab nations. Saddam was never a threat.

Look at the reverse. Who has been a threat, no, more than a threat, who has been the actual menace to those countries that everyone "figures" are out to get us?

These are boogeymen invented for one purpose, to delude people into thinking that there is a threat. What are the odds for any one of us compared to an Afghan, an Iraqi, a Libyan, a Tunesian, an Egyptian, ... ?

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 07:12 pm
@JTT,
These bogeymen have not been invented, but their strength and influence has been grossly exaggerated. I think I make avalid point about this conspiracy theory giving Al Qaida propaganda credance. The men who blew themselves up on 7/7 in London believed 9/11 had been perpetrated by Jews.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 07:13 pm
@JTT,
Quote:

We can assume that the floors were pretty close to level so this fuel would have been spread out quite thin. I

If you ignore the fact that a large plane hit the tower, then you can assume that.

Since a large plane hit the tower at high speeds it would have carried everything in it's path along with it until it all came to a stop in one big pile.

Quote:
This means that the average core column in the impact zone of WTC-1 could support more than twice its design load before reaching the yield strength, i.e., the point where damage may begin to occur.
Again, that is only if you ignore the fact that a large plane hit the tower. The plane would have taken out some of the supports increasing the load on others. The added load would not be downward only. It would also be a side stress which is not included in your calculations.

Quote:
there was still a wide margin of safety, more than enough by several times over to support the outer wall’s share of the gravity load, with plenty to spare
Again.. if you ignore the fact that a large plane hit the tower.
The only stress on the walls was not downward when so much of the support was removed.

While your argument might sound nice to people that have never calculated stress, it is fraught with errors that would make a structure unstable if left unaccounted for.
 

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