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Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 07:29 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Since a large plane hit the tower at high speeds it would have carried everything in it's path along with it until it all came to a stop in one big pile.


No, it wouldn't. Computer simulations show the plane disintegrating except for those parts that were made of much stronger material or were reinforced. Regardless, the fuel would not have been carried along; explosions tell us that.

Quote:
If you ignore the fact that a large plane hit the tower, then you can assume that.


When you fail to read things that cause you cognitive dissonance, then it's unsurprising that you missed,

Quote:
The WTC’s tremendous reserve capacity was no secret. In 1964, four years before the start of construction, an article about the planned WTC appeared in the Engineering News-Record. The article declared that “live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than 2,000 percent before failure occurs.”[72]

A careful reading of the piece also gives insight into why the plane impacts were not fatal to the integrity of the outer wall.

The reason is simple: the perimeter columns were designed to function together as an enormous truss, specifically, a Vierendeel truss. The wall was inherently stable. After the plane impacts it behaved like an arch, simply transferring the load to the surrounding columns. As the 1964 article states,

“the WTC towers will have an inherent capacity to resist unforeseen calamities. This capacity stems from its Vierendeel wall system and is enhanced through the use of high-strength steels.”[73]


The towers were designed to take a hit from a 707.

Quote:
5 After the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center Skilling was asked if the towers were vulnerable to a terrorist attack. He replied that he designed them to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, the largest commercial jet liner of the day.

In 1993 Skilling evidently saw no reason to revise his original opinion in light of the more recent Boeing 767s, which are slightly larger: "Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed. The building structure would still be there." Eric Nalder, “Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision,” Seattle Times, February 27, 1993.

Interestingly, one week before the September 11 attack, Skilling’s partner, Leslie Robertson, spoke at a conference in Frankfurt, Germany. When asked what he had done to protect the towers from terrorism, Robertson confirmed Skilling: “I designed it for a 707 to smash into it.” “Towers Build to Withstand Jet Impact.” Chicago Tribune, September 12, 2001.




JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 07:38 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
These bogeymen have not been invented, but their strength and influence has been grossly exaggerated. I think I make avalid point about this conspiracy theory giving Al Qaida propaganda credance.


I'd say that your focus is misplaced. It's simply that there is no science to the NIST findings.

Quote:

Many assume that the reports are accurate and tell the full story of the events of 9/11. Unfortunately, an examination of the track record of the government in relation to science raises serious questions about their credibility.
Credibility[4] is defined as “the quality, capability, or power to elicit belief:”[5]

The most reliable form of credibility is based on science. The least reliable form is established through repeated or “pathological” lying. If we know someone to be a frequent liar, we will refuse to accept anything they say. Indeed, we will ignore them. This is therefore the most damning blow to credibility.

Is the US administration credible in their scientific reports?

Before answering this question accurately we should first define science. What is the difference between the Scientific method and the Political method?

* Scientific Method: Start with the facts and then use them to reach an argument or thesis.
* Political Method: Start with a thesis and then examine only the facts that confirm the argument.

The Scientific method is significantly more credible as it does not ignore evidence—it must consider every detail. If evidence contradicts the thesis it must be rejected in favor of a new thesis that follows all of the given evidence. In contrast, the political method often attempts to preserve its thesis even in the face of contradicting evidence.
The US administration has occasionally made reference to “creating our own reality”.[6]

''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''[7]

Reality is not subjective; it consists of scientific laws that are observed to be true. “Creating our own reality” entails using facts that support an imaginary “reality” and ignoring facts that do not. This is the very definition of the political method.

http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/281006_scientific_vs_political.html



Quote:
The men who blew themselves up on 7/7 in London believed 9/11 had been perpetrated by Jews.


I would take all these notions with more than a grain of salt. These are the same guys who lied their asses off about Iraq. These are the same guys who take innocuous things and blow them up into huge ideas that fit their agenda.

Now I'm not saying that what you said is impossible for there is obviously a great deal of animosity from Arab nations towards Israel.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 07:55 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Computer simulations show the plane disintegrating except for those parts that were made of much stronger material or were reinforced.

Do you understand how physics works? The force of the plane is still there even if the individual parts are destroyed.

Quote:

The towers were designed to take a hit from a 707.
Yes, and you don't seem to understand. The wall did survive the hit. The walls worked fine in spreading the downward force out. I can easily design a truss structure that holds up 1000 lbs but can be knocked over with only 2 ounces of force. That doesn't mean the structure was incapable of holding 1000 lbs of downward force. It only means you can't just account for one stress which is what you are trying to do.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 08:02 pm
@parados,
When Parados calls you out JTT, who can you look to for validation?

Fido?
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 08:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
It will have to be you Finn.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 08:09 pm
@parados,
A perfectly idiotic and immature response, but what else should we expect from Parados?
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 08:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You might want to check the maturity of your post, the one I responded to Finn.

Or was that a rational and mature thing to say in your opinion?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 08:37 pm
@parados,
Yadda yadda...

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 09:48 pm
@parados,
Quote:
The force of the plane is still there even if the individual parts are destroyed.


The individual parts weren't destroyed. Some of the parts were destroyed. There was way more than enough redundancy to continue to carry the load because carry the load it did.

The NIST report even states that the towers would probably have stood indefinitely, if the impacts had not dislodged the fireproofing material that protected the steel from fire-generated heat.[6]

Quote:
Do you understand how physics works?



The first and foremost of these issues was the near free-fall speed of the collapse. Videos filmed on 9/11 confirm that the towers plummeted as if there was no resistance whatsoever. But how can this be, given the enormous inertial mass of the building itself, which should have resisted and slowed the fall considerably? Even if we assume that the columns in the impact zone failed, the rest of the columns in the towers were untouched by the plane impacts and fires, therefor, suffered no loss of strength. These stone-cold columns should have resisted the fall. Although the exact time of the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 cannot be determined with precision because of the growing dust cloud, each collapse took approximately 10-12 seconds, only 1-2 seconds slower than the time for a billiard ball to free-fall from the WTC roof to the plaza. But how can this be? By what special dispensation did the collapsing WTC violate the laws of physics? The reader will search the NIST report in vain for any discussion of this important anomaly. Why not? Obviously. because agency officials made a political decision not to go there.


Quote:
I can easily design a truss structure that holds up 1000 lbs but can be knocked over with only 2 ounces of force.


Another of your famous red herrings. That has nothing to do with properly braced trusses which was the case in these towers.


No less puzzling was the fact that the collapses were total and nearly symmetrical. This means, of course, that when the collapses began all of the columns on that floor failed at precisely the same moment. But, again, how could this happen? Even if we assume that the plane impacts severed or damaged a number of columns in the impact zone, and even if we also assume that the fires weakened a number of other nearby columns, the majority of columns in the buildings and even on the affected floors were still at full strength at the moment of collapse. The collapses were also total. The rubble from the buildings fell through the plaza level and piled up in the basements. Photos by Joel Meyerowitz and others show that the piles of wreckage were about six stories high, as evidenced by surviving portions of the perimeter wall. The wreckage reached the level of the column tree–––a convenient reference point–––where the larger exterior columns around the base divided into three smaller columns above. The totality of the collapse is hard to explain because, as noted, the largest and strongest columns were in the lower part of the buildings. The towers encountered increasing mass, i.e., resistance, as they fell. For this reason, at least one engineer has argued that the WTC collapse should at some point have self-arrested.[13] Other experts hotly dispute this, however, and the matter remains controversial.[14] Engineers clearly are fascinated by this question.

Quote:
It only means you can't just account for one stress which is what you are trying to do.


On the contrary. You are trying to describe all manner of stresses that aren't supported by the available evidence.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 09:51 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
The little coward pops his head up again. I thought that you threatened to put anyone who quoted me on "ignore". I guess that it's bye-bye Parados, unless, unless that was just another one of your many lies, Finn.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 09:52 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
A perfectly idiotic and immature response,


says the little chickenshit who hides behind 'ignore'.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 07:01 am
@JTT,
The force of the plane was horizontal. That means that force continued in a horizontal fashion and anything loose would be pushed horizontally by that force until the force is diminished. Ergo.. Loose items where moved into a pile by the force of the plane.

Quote:

The NIST report even states that the towers would probably have stood indefinitely, if the impacts had not dislodged the fireproofing material that protected the steel from fire-generated heat.[6]
Yes, and the loss of fireproofing caused the internal beams to sag applying stress to the external columns that was NOT downward and which they were not designed to withstand.

Quote:


Another of your famous red herrings. That has nothing to do with properly braced trusses which was the case in these towers.
It has everything to do with it. You keep relying only on the reports of ONE force, downward, while ignoring the fact that other forces were also at play.

Quote:
No less puzzling was the fact that the collapses were total and nearly symmetrical. This means, of course, that when the collapses began all of the columns on that floor failed at precisely the same moment. But, again, how could this happen?
Again. Let's just ignore physics and the visual data from the collapse so we can make this statement.

Physics states that the building will collapse DOWN, not out, because gravity is the greatest force working on it. The video of the collapse clearly shows the top of the building tilting as the collapse starts but gravity forces it DOWN as the other members fail.

Quote:

On the contrary. You are trying to describe all manner of stresses that aren't supported by the available evidence.
No, I am describing all manner of stresses that are supported by centuries of engineering calculations.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 07:14 am
Looks like the looney birds are going off to la la land.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 07:44 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
I think you've mixed up your medication again Renaldo.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 08:58 am
@izzythepush,
Naw. The only medication I'm on is my heart medicine, a couple nips of Glenmorangie, and a few tokes of my home grown. I'm good for the whole day.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 09:03 am
@parados,
Quote:
Yes, and the loss of fireproofing caused the internal beams to sag applying stress to the external columns that was NOT downward and which they were not designed to withstand.



NIST scientists developed a novel way to evaluate the impact of the fire on the WTC steel. According to the report, the approach was “easy to implement and robust enough to examine the entire component in the field.”[33] They found that the original primer paint used on the steel beams and columns was altered by high heat. This made it possible to determine the level of exposure by analyzing the paint on the samples.[34] But the results were surprising. NIST found no evidence that any of the steel samples, including those from the impact areas and fire-damaged floors, had reached temperatures exceeding 1,110ºF (600ºC).[35] Sixteen recovered perimeter columns showed evidence of having been exposed to fire, but even so, out of 170 areas examined on these columns only three locations had reached temperatures in excess of 250ºC (450ºF).[36] Moreover, NIST found no evidence that any of the recovered core columns had reached even this minimal temperature.[37] The startling fact is that NIST’s own data failed to support its conclusion that the fires of 9/11 heated up the steel columns, causing them to weaken and buckle.[/size]


Quote:

Again. Let's just ignore physics and the visual data from the collapse so we can make this statement.


Indeed, NIST scientists estimated that on average the WTC fires burned through the available combustibles at maximum temperatures (1,000ºC) in only about 15-20 minutes.[41] After which, the fires began to subside. To make matters worse for the official collapse theory, NIST also found that “the fuel loading in the core areas....was negligible.”[42] It’s easy to understand why all of these facts are downplayed in the NIST summary report. Taken together, they are fatal to NIST’s collapse model, which requires that high temperatures be sustained. Fires that subside after only 15-20 minutes simply cannot weaken enormous steel columns and cause them to buckle.

Quote:
Physics states that the building will collapse DOWN, not out, because gravity is the greatest force working on it. The video of the collapse clearly shows the top of the building tilting as the collapse starts but gravity forces it DOWN as the other members fail.


And there are other problems. Since in a global collapse all of the columns by definition must fail at once, this implies a more or less constant blaze across a wide area. But such was not the case on 9/11. As I’ve already noted, NIST found that the unexpectedly light fuel load in any given area of the WTC was mostly consumed in about 15-20 minutes. At no time on 9/11 did the fires rage through an entire floor of the WTC–––as Thomas Eagar implied in his interview. The fires were not sustained, on the contrary, they were transient.[49] This was especially true in WTC-1. The fires flared up in a given area, reached a maximum intensity within about 10 minutes, then gradually died down as the fire front moved on to consume combustibles in other areas. But notice what this also means: As the fires moved away from the impact zone into areas with little or no damage to the SFRM fireproofing, the heating of the steel columns and trusses in those areas would have been inconsequential. The NIST’s own data showed that, overall, the fires on floor 96–––where the collapse supposedly began–––reached a peak 30-45 minutes after the impact and waned thereafter. Temperatures were actually cooling across most of floor 96, including the core, at the moment of the collapse. But if this is correct, the central piers at that point were not losing strength but regaining it.[50] How, then, did they collapse? Moreover, NIST’s assertion that “temperatures and stresses were high in the core area” is not supported by its finding that the fuel load in the core was negligible.[51] On this point NIST again contradicts itself. For all of these reasons, NIST fails to explain in its report how transient fires weakened WTC-1’s enormous core columns and perimeter columns in the allotted span, triggering a global collapse.




izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 09:04 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Glad to hear it. Personally I can't touch whisky, I got totally hammered on it when I was 17. Never been able to touch it since.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 09:14 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

And there are other problems. Since in a global collapse all of the columns by definition must fail at once, this implies a more or less constant blaze across a wide area.

It implies no such thing. Each failed support places more strain on adjacent supports, causing them to fail faster. Eventually, it reaches the point of catastrophic failure.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 09:17 am
@izzythepush,
Pussy.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2011 09:34 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Each failed support places more strain on adjacent supports, causing them to fail faster. Eventually, it reaches the point of catastrophic failure.


Are you advancing the pancake theory, DD?
 

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