Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

@raprap,

raprap wrote:

I know boobie doesn't consider wikipedia a viable source, but here a pretty good lay source on adiabatic flame temperatures that includes a chart of common combustible and flammable materials http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature.

Another misconception you've stated--that steel is difficult to weld. If steel all that resistant to welding then the body of cars would have to be riveted together. Steel can be welded easily by forge, gas, and arc among others.

Rap

Car steel is very different from construction steel. now your a welder i guess. I dont see why you keep posting the same irrelevant data. Your 300F is not close to the open air burn. unless you think the towers were filled with compressed o2 in equal molar ratio as the jet fuel. Steel beams are hard to weld but i assume you have never seen a weld being done let alone done it.

Me: man doesnt paper burn at 451 degrees?
Rap Yes but if you vaporize it and compress it to 1111psi and put the WTC inside it would burn it. Thats what you are saying with the fuel oil just about. you keep giving stats that are completely irrelevant.

4 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I suspect that the data I provided is more accurate than yours.

This 9/11 conspiracy stuff is old hat; I doubt you'll find any converts here. We've discussed it on this board a dozen times.

The steel is under load; heat weakens the steel, steel buckles, each failed support increases stress on remaining supports until there is a catastrophic failure.

Damn man must suck to be you. rather be a dipshit than spend a few hours to see you couldn't be more wrong. You are a perfect citizen. believes everything published with express written consent of the government and cant remember 7th grade science well enough to see how deep uncle same is in his ass. Sickening

0 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

You are making a lot of assumptions that are false.

1. Buildings have to meet fire codes. Furnishings often don't. Those furnishings that do meet fire codes meet a lower code than the building itself. My chair will self extinguish if you hold a lighter to it for a few seconds and take it away but it will burn while the flame is applied. If you doused it in jet fuel and let it burn for 3 minutes, what do you think would happen to it. If I put it in a fire that is already burning it will not put the fire out. It will burn right along with it.
2. Furnishings and common office items like PAPER do burn and can burn quite hot. An oak desk for example would still be oak and would still burn at about 900-1200 degrees. Paper under the right conditions would also achieve those temperatures. Most office furniture is built out of particle board which does burn.
3. I guess you should tell that to all the manufacturers and steel yards that form steel. Steel bends. Mild steel bends. Hard stainless steel bends. (Google metal brake) I have been bending it for over 30 years for various uses. Steel does NOT keep its strength when reheated to the temperatures it was formed at. Obviously you have never worked with heated steel or you would know that. (See rap's answer for more info and to understand there are various types of steel.)
4. There is a lot of plastic in any office. My desk has about 20 lbs of plastic laminate, a computer monitor, speakers, printer, pens, CD cases, keyboard, mouse , plastic drawer dividers, plastic in/out trays, plastic in my office chair. There are easily 30-40 pounds of plastic just at my desk. By the way, a small campfire can produce a plume of smoke visible from miles away so that isn't much of an argument.
5. I have watched people heat 1" solid steel rod with a propane flame (in a small furnace) for about 10 minutes and bend it like butter. An acetylene torch could melt the steel at the torch tip and in less than a minute. (Google cutting torch) I can bend 12g 1" square steel tube with jigs by hand without heating it. I don't have to ask a welder about working with steel since I do that myself. I've been welding steel for 30 years.

Now.. how much work have you done with steel?

3 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

451 degF is the kindling point of paper--that is why Bradbury chose that as the name of his novel.

0 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

The adiabatic flame temperature of kerosene of 3000 degF is for air (21% O2, 79% N2) at 1 atm (14.7 psi) pressure.

0 Replies

@raprap,

raprap wrote:

First steel is brittle and then it isn't---whatever. Believe whatever you want to believe I don't care. Believe that kerosene burns at 500 degF and that it is flammable, steel isn't ductile and is hard to weld, building sway only at the joints, that what you think you knew in the eighth grade is fact-just do us all a favor don't drive--I don't think you can comprehend that a steering wheel is round.

BTW springs are steel--if springs are brittle how can they be springs---now I know the springiness is because of the mounts--idiot.

Rap

you said it was brittle not me bud. I said it breaks, not bends which is true. But it has a very high tensile strength which make it far from brittle. Brittle things break, not bend and have low tensile strength(are weak) steel has a high tensile strength(very strong) Get it?? see the difference?? your mistake not mine.

2 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

Quote:

Steel beams are hard to weld but i assume you have never seen a weld being done let alone done it.

Since when are steel beams hard to weld?

Maybe for you they are but I can weld a beam in less time than you took to write that idiotic statement.

0 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

If something breaks but doesn't bend it is brittle.

1 Reply

@Ticomaya,

Don't waste your time with Tico, Dd, he'll just start whining and crying and then he'll run off to "ignore".

0 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

More of you misconception--equal moles of O2 and kerosene will result in incomplete combustion. Firefighters call this condition backdraft and it can add explosion to the mix of combustion.

Second--springs are steel and if steel was brittle, springs wouldn't be springy.

1 Reply

@raprap,

raprap wrote:

BTW springs are steel--if springs are brittle how can they be springs---now I know the springiness is because of the mounts--idiot.

Rap

Not construction grade steel they dont. That would be some kind of alloy. im the idiot yet Mr engineer doesn't know the difference between tool steel stainless steel and the other million alloys that can be made with different property's. EVer heard the term cracked head or cracked block referring to a automotive application? well if you had seen one you would know empirically that some types of steel crack/break and some bend.Construction steel which is the only kind we need to worry about for the WTC is construction steel and is 1-2ish% carbon and the rest Iron. THat will break. thats why its is used. man you could have just looked it up and been shutting up by now. construction steel is a crystalline substance and like most if not all such substances they don't bend, they break under pressure. malleable substances such as gold bend because the electrons can move around easily. THe difference is the steel could hol up an object that would turn the gold into a gold patty. you could keep adding weight to the steel until it was too much and it would break. any weight less than that which breaks it could be held there forever. with the malleable metals say half the weight that would smash it would bend it over time. with construction steel its all or nothingRead a book smarty pants

1 Reply

@parados,

I can't believe you're this thick. Leave my post alone. Show my entire post without your interruptions when you quote me. Post your reply at the end of my entire post without your interjections.

I can't make it any simpler than that. You did it correctly in the post I am replying to now. Do you get it now?

3 Replies

@Renaldo Dubois,

No, Renaldo, I think they need your valuable scientific input. I don't this will ever go away until you sort them out.

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@raprap,

I'm gonna have to keep my eye on you. You lie a lot.

What I said was this....The FOUNDER of Wikipedia says Wikipedia is not a scholarly source and college professors will not accept a paper that has Wikipedia as a source.

I think we have enough lefty dweebs here now to begin a reading comprehension class.

0 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

definition brittle http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brittle

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

I got it already Renaldo.

You can't deal with the content so you attack the way it was delivered. It seems to be the way you deal with anyone. You accuse them of misquoting you or interrupting rather than answering their arguments.

1 Reply

@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I can't believe you're this thick. Leave my post alone.

no

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Show my entire post without your interruptions when you quote me.

no

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Post your reply at the end of my entire post without your interjections.

no

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I can't make it any simpler than that. You did it correctly in the post I am replying to now.

Neener neener.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Do you get it now?

We don't care.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

You are making a lot of assumptions that are false.

1. Buildings have to meet fire codes. Furnishings often don't. Those furnishings that do meet fire codes meet a lower code than the building itself. My chair will self extinguish if you hold a lighter to it for a few seconds and take it away but it will burn while the flame is applied. If you doused it in jet fuel and let it burn for 3 minutes, what do you think would happen to it. If I put it in a fire that is already burning it will not put the fire out. It will burn right along with it.
2. Furnishings and common office items like PAPER do burn and can burn quite hot. An oak desk for example would still be oak and would still burn at about 900-1200 degrees. Paper under the right conditions would also achieve those temperatures. Most office furniture is built out of particle board which does burn.
3. I guess you should tell that to all the manufacturers and steel yards that form steel. Steel bends. Mild steel bends. Hard stainless steel bends. (Google metal brake) I have been bending it for over 30 years for various uses. Steel does NOT keep its strength when reheated to the temperatures it was formed at. Obviously you have never worked with heated steel or you would know that. (See rap's answer for more info and to understand there are various types of steel.)
4. There is a lot of plastic in any office. My desk has about 20 lbs of plastic laminate, a computer monitor, speakers, printer, pens, CD cases, keyboard, mouse , plastic drawer dividers, plastic in/out trays, plastic in my office chair. There are easily 30-40 pounds of plastic just at my desk. By the way, a small campfire can produce a plume of smoke visible from miles away so that isn't much of an argument.
5. I have watched people heat 1" solid steel rod with a propane flame (in a small furnace) for about 10 minutes and bend it like butter. An acetylene torch could melt the steel at the torch tip and in less than a minute. (Google cutting torch) I can bend 12g 1" square steel tube with jigs by hand without heating it. I don't have to ask a welder about working with steel since I do that myself. I've been welding steel for 30 years.

Now.. how much work have you done with steel?

Same as Rap. We are talking about construction grade Steel beams. all thet things you listed are Iron+carbon+other metal. The other metal is what allows the bending to occur. Construction steel as in the beams weighting thousands of pounds for buildings are only carbon and iron. the carbon is what makes it harder than iron the carbon keeps the electrons in place forming a rigid structure. you are right but only about things i havent said a word about . no crap there are lots of types of steel that can be bent. but that is neither here nor there in a discussion about the towers construction grade steel. To cut the steel we are talking about you need a plasma cutter. at least you sound like you know your **** but Rap has us talking about more irrelevant ****. All the steel you speak of is mixed with something that allows it to be bent. Iron can be bent. Carbon can not. so you can grasp how more carbon + less malleability but more tensile strength and less carbon the opposite? i mean damn this is not secret knowledge you could read a few pages and understand the difference. I mean your bending tool grade steal and stainless and such. But i repeat nobody is bending 2% carbon construction grade steel. good himself had to wait for the BOS to even make the stuff. Seriously go read about it and i will not need to say more. which im not going to anyways. seriously. im downloading a 7th and 8th grade textbook. i will scan the alloy sections for you guys.

2 Replies

@Doubt doubt,

Engine Blocks and heads are grey cast iron not steel--tool steel is high carbon steel so they can keep a cutting edge. Tool steels are also very hard and are subject to being brittle. Structural steels, generally, are lower carbon so they can maintain ductility with a good tensile strength.

Metals, aren't chemically considered crystalline solids--metallic atoms are in a matrix that is affected by additions of other elements (carbon, silicon, oxygen, tins, etal--alloying) that change physical and chemical properties. These atomic nuclei are affixed in what is commonly called a 'sea of electrons'. Chemical and physical properties of alloys can also be modified by heat treating (tempering). In addition crystalline solids aren't good conductors of heat and electricity like metals and alloys. Moreover, crystalline solids tend to be brittle and have a poor strength to weight ratio, which is why tall buildings and large bridges aren't constructed completely out of stone and concrete (poor tensile strength, good in compression). That is why steel reinforcement is used with concrete--usually with prestressing (stretched)while the concrete sets.

If you want a demonstration of the flexibility of steel--walk to the middle of a large steel truss bridge and wait for a semi to pass--that vibration is the springiness or the structural steel.

As for gold, it is a heavy malleable (soft) metal that is easily worked---gold is also inert which is why it can be found in nature as placer. Gold is also a very good conductor of electricity. Usually gold is alloyed to decrease it's malleability.

Get a grip doubleD, your continued use of Fahrenheit instead of Celsius demonstrates you're American and not particularly technically cognizant.

Rap

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

If something breaks but doesn't bend it is brittle.

Wrong. that is your incorrect concept. for something to be brittle by definition it must break and break easily.

1 Reply

Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

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