Is Capitalism Good or Bad?

truth
No, I haven't, Joe--or at least I do not recall doing so. I generally avoid political theory, finding it about as dogmatic as theology. For that reason I am not going to engage Perception in the debate I can see he's craving. I've expressed my view regarding capitalism and have no more to say.

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joefromchicago wrote:

perception wrote:
Joe, you obviously have some thoughts that are contrary to the current view of capitalism. I for one would like to hear them before launching into this discussion.

If the current view is that any state actually practices capitalism simpliciter, then I do indeed have contrary views.

JLNobody: Surely you've read some Kropotkin, n'est ce pas?

Joe if you mean does any state practice true "free market " capitalism then I would suggest your are probably correct----none do. But let me ask you a question: given the complexities of a global economy how does any state practice true free market capitalism?

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JL

Thanks for not continuing on the political aspect because I do NOT crave a debate on the issue. I must say however that I get very sick of the bashing that Ashcroft is wrongly subjected to. IMO if he had not requested and received the provisions of the Patriot Act he would have had no choice but to resign because he would not have had the tools with which to accomplish the objective he was tasked with----- to protect the American people from another 9/11.

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JLN, was I mistaken in my interpretation of your words? What I inferred was a not so subtle reminder that although Capitalism is the best system; utterly ignoring the less successful would lead to its collapse. History does show that poor hungry people will always rebel. Was I far off the mark?

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perception wrote:

JL

Thanks for not continuing on the political aspect because I do NOT crave a debate on the issue. I must say however that I get very sick of the bashing that Ashcroft is wrongly subjected to. IMO if he had not requested and received the provisions of the Patriot Act he would have had no choice but to resign because he would not have had the tools with which to accomplish the objective he was tasked with----- to protect the American people from another 9/11.

I see!

So those bastards are trying to destroy our democracy -- and in order to prevent them from doing so, we have to trash it ourselves.

Sounds like the kind of thinking that went into destroying villages to save them from communism.

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Frank

I fail to see how we have "trashed" our democracy by implementing some electronic surveilence measures.

Let me ask you a question----if you had been tasked with protecting America please tell me exactly how you would have gone about it? I realize this will require considerably more thought than hitting a golf ball but maybe you've been retired too long. You sound like one of those liberals who have not yet been "mugged" by reality-----perhaps if you think really hard about a problem the light bulb will suddenly illuminate. But then again you may be one of the many who think the ACLU was doing a great job of protecting America by taking away one hand of law enforcement and cutting 4 fingers off the other hand.

Your analogy of destroying the villages to save them from communism was less than humorous.

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perception wrote:

Frank

I fail to see how we have "trashed" our democracy by implementing some electronic surveilence measures.

Yes, you fail to see lots of things, Perception. Try opening your eyes. It might work.

In any case, I did not say that we "have trashed" our democracy. These dolts are not nearly that competent. I merely made the ironic comment, "So those bastards are trying to destroy our democracy -- and in order to prevent them from doing so, we have to trash it ourselves."

Apparently, you failed to see that also.

Quote:

Let me ask you a question----if you had been tasked with protecting America please tell me exactly how you would have gone about it?

I wouldn't take on such responsibility because I am not competent to deal with it. I only wish the dolts now in charge had been as honest about their abilities.

Quote:

I realize this will require considerably more thought than hitting a golf ball but maybe you've been retired too long. You sound like one of those liberals who have not yet been "mugged" by reality..."

I am not a liberal. A person does not have to be a liberal in order to see American conservatism for the pond scum it is -- nor to realize that the current darling of those conservatives is a goddam moron being guided by a bunch of incompetent thugs.

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----perhaps if you think really hard about a problem the light bulb will suddenly illuminate. But then again you may be one of the many who think the ACLU was doing a great job of protecting America by taking away one hand of law enforcement and cutting 4 fingers off the other hand.

I think the ACLU is protecting our constitution against misguided folks like you -- and I appreciate the fact that they are doing so.

Quote:

Your analogy of destroying the villages to save them from communism was less than humorous.

Really! Well, then don't laugh. I wasn't trying to provoke one.

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perception wrote:

Let me ask you a question----if you had been tasked with protecting America please tell me exactly how you would have gone about it?

Frank Apisa wrote:

I wouldn't take on such responsibility because I am not competent to deal with it. I only wish the dolts now in charge had been as honest about their abilities.

Then you admit to being one of those who throw rocks from the sidelines then seek refuge in the flock of other sheep.

Quote:

----perhaps if you think really hard about a problem the light bulb will suddenly illuminate. But then again you may be one of the many who think the ACLU was doing a great job of protecting America by taking away one hand of law enforcement and cutting 4 fingers off the other hand.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I think the ACLU is protecting our constitution against misguided folks like you -- and I appreciate the fact that they are doing so.

So then you are one of those who support the ACLU in their many efforts to undermine enforcement of the rule of law. IMO, the ACLU should be charged with the atrocity of 9/11. Their overjealous actions prevented communication among the CIA, FBI and local law enforcement. Sharing of information among all responsible agencies is essential if we are ever to be successful in rounding up al Queda cells in this country.

I can predict that I am wasting my time because there is no current flowing to your light bulb or perhaps it's because the bulb is burned out. I therefore will disengage from this fruitless discussion. I apologize to the originator of this thread for the distraction.

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perception wrote:

perception wrote:
Let me ask you a question----if you had been tasked with protecting America please tell me exactly how you would have gone about it?

Frank Apisa wrote:
I wouldn't take on such responsibility because I am not competent to deal with it. I only wish the dolts now in charge had been as honest about their abilities.

Then you admit to being one of those who throw rocks from the sidelines then seek refuge in the flock of other sheep.

Apparently another case of your being unable to see because you have your eyes and mind closed.

You are a very lucky person, Perception. Ignorance seems to come so easily for you.

Quote:

Quote:
----perhaps if you think really hard about a problem the light bulb will suddenly illuminate. But then again you may be one of the many who think the ACLU was doing a great job of protecting America by taking away one hand of law enforcement and cutting 4 fingers off the other hand.

Frank Apisa wrote:
I think the ACLU is protecting our constitution against misguided folks like you -- and I appreciate the fact that they are doing so.

So then you are one of those who support the ACLU in their many efforts to undermine enforcement of the rule of law. IMO, the ACLU should be charged with the atrocity of 9/11. Their overjealous actions prevented communication among the CIA, FBI and local law enforcement. Sharing of information among all responsible agencies is essential if we are ever to be successful in rounding up al Queda cells in this country.

The ACLU does not effort to undermine enforcement of the rule of law, you poor deluded schmuck, they effort to protect the rule of law. Their actions did not prevent communications among the CIA, FBI, and law enforcement -- in fact their actions did not impact on that issue at all.

Quote:

I can predict that I am wasting my time because there is no current flowing to your light bulb or perhaps it's because the bulb is burned out. I therefore will disengage from this fruitless discussion. I apologize to the originator of this thread for the distraction.

I think you are very smart to run away.

Mind your tail, now.

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All consuming growth for the sake of all consuming growth=capitalism or cancer?

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Frank :

You've just like my wife-----she seems to get some weird satifaction from having the last word even if, like yours, it is totally meaningless. You really should stick to hitting golf balls-----some are bound to come close to the target unlike your rhetoric. Have a nice day.

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perception wrote:

Frank :

You've just like my wife-----she seems to get some weird satifaction from having the last word even if, like yours, it is totally meaningless. You really should stick to hitting golf balls-----some are bound to come close to the target unlike your rhetoric. Have a nice day.

Well...considering the fact that you came back...and from the sounds of your response...that I hit a pretty good shot here!

You have a nice day, too!

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perception wrote:

Joe if you mean does any state practice true "free market " capitalism then I would suggest your are probably correct----none do. But let me ask you a question: given the complexities of a global economy how does any state practice true free market capitalism?

In the same manner as one eats an elephant: in small chunks over time.

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truth
OccomBill, I DO feel that it is in the enlightened long-term interests of the more successful in capitalist systems to provide a safety net for the less successful. The present-day "Neocoms", with their disinterest in such safety nets, wish to reduce the role of government to the bare functions of (1) a military to protect economic interests abroad and thwart rebellion within the country and (2) the protection of their property interests. This is too UNenlightened a platform and one that is rooted both in greed and ideology (what is ideology anyway if not a mythology designed to justify some extant or desired condition?

Perception, in this regard you may want to read Max Weber's classic, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, re: your equation of socialism with religion). I will say, Perception, that since we cannot prove whether or not the reduction of freedoms by our STATE apparatus does in fact protect us from another 9/11, it is better--to paraphrase Frank--to preserve the freedoms, not diminish them "for the sake of freedom." There is much that can be done without the Patriot Acts--which I do not see as particularly patriotic in terms of the ideals of our democratic system (I know it's also a Republic). I view the Patriot Acts as analagous to using a torn and germ-soaked condom to achieve Safe Sex. The same applies to capital punishment: we kill people without any proof that in so doing we deter or reduce the rate of capital crimes. The arbitrariness of this reflects the power of an irresponsible state apparatus. I don't want to reduce government; I want to make it more humane, sensible, and accountable to those who have created and sustain it--the American people.

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truth
Perception, I am a member of the ACLU, and that membership reflects my sense of patriotic duty.
Dys. I also see a strong resemblance between irrational growth in capitalism and cancerous cell proliferation. But capitalist companies try to growth in order to avoid destruction. It's the system--which is now globalizing--that makes such obligatory growth necessary that is cancerous.

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Thanks JL. I just wanted to make sure my comments on your first point were an accurate reflection of your first point. I do disagree with some of your expanded positions, but my comments on your original point stand as written.

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JL

I respect your philosophical writings too much to risk getting into a "pissing" contest on this subject as it is already subject to the "law of diminishing returns" for both of us.

However----ha you knew that was coming didn't you--- I must reject your contention that just because we can't prove the results of the Patriot Act( this is an unfortunate title) we should go back to the status quo of the ACLU wagging the dog.

9/11 very nearly brought this country to it's knees economically----after 2 years we are just now beginning to start a recovery with the jury still out on it's sustainability. If the country is bankrupt --as we might well be if we suffer another devastating attack----and we as citizens are destitute and reduced to bartering intead of being a world leader-----I would say that was a very high price for allowing the ACLU to tie us in knots over an IMAGINED slight loss of personal freedom. A freedom that we certainly won't have if we lose this war to another culture that want's to take us back to the 7th century.

I really believe the only difference in our positions is that we are far apart in our individual analysis of the threat. I certainly do not question your patriotism but where do you draw the line between winning a war and winning debating point? Please take a serious look at the threat-----being an ex-military guy, I know from experience that you can never afford to underestimate the enemy. I personally think bin Laden has seriously miscalculated and is on the verge of desperation, but he has already proven to be very dangerous and resourceful therefore deserving of deep respect until he is in a cage with Saddam.

Now back to capitalism

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Perception, don't you think you are overstating the threat of Bin Laden, at least a little? A ration of bathtub stick-um would save more lives than Bin Laden's taken. His actions were merely the catalyst of our market's adjustment. The adjustment was coming anyway. By the way; I am all for hunting him and others like him till they are all gone or forever, which ever comes first But I'm not ready to burn the constitution to accomplish it.

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As I've said repeatedly in various threads:

Osama and the fundmentalists are a grave danger to this country...

...but compared with the danger presented by the likes of Perception, they are pikers.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

As I've said repeatedly in various threads:

Osama and the fundmentalists are a grave danger to this country...

...but compared with the danger presented by the likes of Perception, they are pikers.

Damn----thanks Frank for giving me all that respect. I owe it all to the ACLU------THEY ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ORGANIZATION IN THE US TODAY. While you suckers think they are protecting the constitution---they are actually rewriting it-----that is,what the activist left wing judges( 9th circuit court) have not already re-written. Laughing

You see Frank-----I'm taking my fanatical cues from you as I have nothing better to do at this minute.

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