Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 06:44 pm
@Fido,
I disagree and here is why. The constitution will stand as long as those who defend it are successful. We are having a rebirth in America. Kinda like a "back to basics". Our country is in trouble because we have too much government. It's killing us financially and that makes us weak. America is weak.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 07:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You should put numbers on these 5 or so simple minded memes you love to quote, Om. Then instead of writing them out in full, you could just put,

Quote:
......... ....... .....


#3.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 07:26 pm
If the United States is weak (and your say-so doesn't make it so), it's weak because your boy Busy ran us trillions of dollars into debt, and borrowed from China to keep his lame government limping along.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 07:45 pm
@Setanta,
That's just BS. Bush is not "my boy". I'm not a republican. Obama has put added 4 trillion to the debt. It's pathetically hilarious to blame Bush for the mess we are in. Denial gone to seed.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 09:14 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

And you're a complete fool. I never claimed only one legislative branch could pass a law.

But you did argue that when you said that I had no way of knowing if the Constitution had meaning for them. There really isn't any other way to take your argument since it was a direct response to my showing where they did attempt to claim one legislative branch could pass a law.

Or did you just not read my post prior to making that statement?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 02:51 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
It's pathetically hilarious to blame Mr. Obama for a bail-out package which was approved before he was ever inaugurated--your denial has apparently also gone to seed.

I love it when tea baggers claim not to be Republicans--as though any of the clowns at that loony farm would ever vote for anyone else.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 05:39 am
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Quote:
Personal freedom is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL
to the domestic jurisdiction of government.


You should consider a career as a sci-fi writer.
If Aristotle was correct, that governments were formed for good, and good is what governments are supposed to do, then what good can they do without jurisdiction, that being the ability to judge the right and the wrong of an issue??? We all have our personal sovereignity, but if we do not use our freedom to do right as well as doing well, then we are a danger to others in our area, and government needs the power to control us... It may be true that the government we have has lost its moral authority to lead the people, but who has that moral authority??? The churches and the schools together have both demonstrated a cruel tyranny over thought when given the opportunity, and when is the last time you heard of such people being recalled??? The government to have moral authority need only judge itself in light of its stated goals which are all good, rather than judging its self and its progress in light of a dead and dumb ideology that people accept without proof because it is beyond proof, contrary to proof, and anathma to the truth... Democracy as the only true form of government exists for the defense of people, but the pale shadow of democracy as we have it exist for the defense of the idea of capitalism; and it is breaking the people, and reducing the people to slavery so that capital may be free...
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 05:45 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

And you're a complete fool. I never claimed only one legislative branch could pass a law. Your boy president is a third rate constitutional interim professor. Was he your teacher?
Try to play nice... Even the fools on this site, yourself included, have something to say of value... We can arrive at some acceptible approximation of truth if we can keep the lines of communication open.... Consider humanity in the light of what is known, and what is unknown, and you will see we are all together fools... The knowledge any of us can possess can only makes us relatively more understanding or less so, and so, no one is complete either in foolishness or wisdom... Let me offer that many who think they are leaning to the right are actually leaning to the wrong...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 05:57 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I disagree and here is why. The constitution will stand as long as those who defend it are successful. We are having a rebirth in America. Kinda like a "back to basics". Our country is in trouble because we have too much government. It's killing us financially and that makes us weak. America is weak.
Defend what; dingdong??? The Constitution is like the bible which is as many different books as there are readers of it... People who say they support the constitution are only supporting that part of it that they think supports them... I judge the thing only by what it sought to accomplish against what it has wrought.. It sought justice and found injustice... It sought perfect union and found perfect disunion... It sought defense and it has laid bare our throats before the blades of the world.... We cannot defend ourselves from competition with slaves, so there is no way we can free them, or protect ourselves from slavery... When a whole people must give so much of time and money to have some measure of control of their government so that they are not run over by it like some juggernaut, then no one can say it is working... Forms that work save their owners time instead of stealing their lives... A form of dwelling, for example, that is old and decrepit demands all ones free time when a new form of dwelling would take only more money but leave people free to earn more... We are forced to make due with a form of government that does not work for the very reason Jefferson noted in the Declaration... People fear change, but change is upon us... If you hate me, and I hate you when the only cause of difference between us is our government, then it is time for a new government whether you wish to admit it or not, and the changing of it is our right...
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 08:03 am
@parados,
I probably didn't read it. You bore me.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 08:04 am
@Setanta,
Why do you dislike Americans who want to get back to the Constitution?
Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 08:06 am
@Fido,
Your idea of what the Constitutional government of the USA is supposed to be is not what our founders designed it to be. We're going back to basics. That's what has all the left up in arms. The fact is the left does not want a real constutional government.
parados
 
  5  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 08:20 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I probably didn't read it. You bore me.

That explains a lot about you Renaldo. You seem to often comment on things you know nothing about and now you are admitting to it. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 08:21 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Your idea of what the Constitutional government of the USA is supposed to be is not what our founders designed it to be. We're going back to basics. That's what has all the left up in arms. The fact is the left does not want a real constutional government.

Sure.. that must be why the right passed a bill claiming it would become law if the Senate failed to act on it. It's that back the the way the founders designed it to be thing.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 09:29 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Why do you make groundless assumptions about whom i like or dislike?

I don't see any evidence that the country has ever abandoned the constitution, and i certainly don't see any plausible devotion to the constitution on the part of the tea baggers. In fact, the evidence is pretty good that the tea baggers haven't read and understood the constitution.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 01:11 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
The constitution will stand as long as those who defend it are successful. We are having a rebirth in America. Kinda like a "back to basics". Our country is in trouble because we have too much government. It's killing us financially and that makes us weak. America is weak.


And y'all are a bunch of whiny crybabies. Look past your own selfish selves. You have way too much of the world's wealth and you've gotten it by a murderous rampage over the poor countries of the world. It's been going on for over a century and it doesn't appear that it will end anytime soon.

You consume way too much of the world's wealth and not fairly. You use your huge clout and great wealth to create favorable market conditions for a large group of fat ass farmers who make more in subsidies than they do in actual market sales. This done to crush subsistence farmers the world over who struggle to feed their families.

You guys are really sickening. The vast majority of you "free" people just keep turning around, buttering up your butts, screaming to be roundly porked another time.

You prance around the globe making the most hypocritical pretense of being both moral and just when the facts show you to be in the running for top spot as the most vile, rapacious nation to ever exist on planet Earth.

Quit your whining, Renaldo, [and others] and do something important with your life.

Try to stop the mass murders, the thievery committed by your government. Isn't your Constitution supposed to be based on some high ideals? They've not come anywhere close to being upheld. They have been used and mightily abused time after time after time and that isn't simply of the past.


But what about US war crimes, Mr Ambassador-at-large?
January 31st, 2011

By Rahnuma Ahmed

Because of its power and global interests U.S. leaders have committed crimes as a matter of course and structural necessity. A strict application of international law would … have given every U.S. president of the past 50 years Nuremberg treatment.
Edward S Herman, American professor of economics

The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully documented but nobody talks about them.
Harold Pinter, English dramatist


WHEN I read of the US ambassador at-large for war crimes Stephen Rapp’s impending visit to Bangladesh, to offer advice to the government on how to try Bangladeshi war criminals of 1971, I was reminded of a personal experience more than a decade ago.

Jahangirnagar University, where I was teaching, was in turmoil. A thousand-plus students, mostly women, spilled out of classrooms to protest against campus rape. Demonstrations. Rallies. Sit-ins. ‘We want an independent enquiry. Punish the rapist!’ they chanted, as they pointed fingers at Jasimuddin Manik, general secretary of the Bangladesh Chhatra League, JU unit.

Two, maybe three days later, the Chhatra League, too, was out in full force. Led by Manik, I watched the procession wind its way along the corridors, march down brick-laden pathways. ‘We want justice. Punish the rapist!’

It’s known as deceit.

One must admit, it was cleverly done. At the very outset of his press conference on January 13, Rapp spoke of his personal ‘disappointment’ in his ‘own government’, in the ‘highest [American] leadership during that period’ when ‘enormous crimes’ had been committed, then quickly shifted, in the same breath, to expressing ‘pride in the leadership’ exercised by late Senator Edward Kennedy, and the role of Archer Blood, US Consul General in Dhaka, in providing ‘accurate reports of the atrocities.’ Implying, thereby, that one absolved the other.

No mention of Henry Kissinger, the then national security adviser, who is, in the words of investigative journalist Wayne Madsen, the ‘most prominent unindicted war criminal roaming around today.’ Kissinger had, in late April 1971, at the very height of mass murder—at least ten thousand civilians had been slaughtered in the first 3 days, the following 9 months had been marked by mass rape, genocide and dismemberment, the eventual civilian death toll put as high as 3 million—sent a message to Pakistan’s ruler General Yahya Khan, thanking him for his ‘delicacy and tact’ (Christopher Hitchens, The Trial of Henry Kissinger, 2002).

No mention of Archer Blood’s immediate recall from his post either, for having been the senior signatory to the April 6, 1971 cable from Dhaka. Nor, heaven forbid, of the fact that Blood reported not so much the genocide, as the US government’s ‘complicity’ in the genocide. ‘Our government has failed to denounce the suppression of democracy. Our government has failed to denounce atrocities…[instead it has bent] over backwards to placate the West Pak[istan] dominated government…Our government has evidenced what many will consider moral bankrupt, ironically at a time when the USSR sent President Yahya Khan a message defending democracy… We, as professional civil servants, express our dissent with current policy and fervently hope that our true and lasting interests here can be defined and our policies redirected.’

Nor any mention of the punishment meted out to the cable’s other signatories. The cable, ‘the most public and the most strongly worded demarche from State Department servants to the State Department that has ever been recorded’ was signed by 20 members of the US diplomatic team here and, by a further 9 senior officers in the South Asia division in Washington. Being a vengeful man, Kissinger ‘downgraded’ them after becoming the secretary of state in 1973.

But there was vengeance in store for newly-independent Bangladesh, and the founder of the nation, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, too. Having received bad press for his handling of the Bangladesh crisis which reportedly spoiled his finest hour in China—overtures to China, dubbed `ping pong diplomacy’ by some, in which Pakistan, America’s close ally was the intermediary—Kissinger’s conduct toward Bangladesh and Sheikh Mujib was marked by ‘unremitting hostility and contempt.’

He ‘snubbed’ Mujib on several occasions when the latter visited the US as head of state in 1974, boycotted the 15-minute meeting Mujib was allowed by president Gerald Ford, and opposed Mujib’s main request for emergency grain shipments and help with debt relief. ‘Since they had the audacity to become independent of one of my client states, they will damn well float on their own for a while’ (Roger Morris, Kissinger’s then aide). And, after an 8-hour stop in Bangladesh in November 1974—during which Kissinger, in his 3-minute press conference had refused to say why he had sent the USS Enterprise to the Bay of Bengal in December 1971—the ‘two track’ concept was set into operation. It meant that intelligence officers and military attaches could go behind the back and over the head of US ambassadors, they could run ‘their own show’ with ‘secret authorizations from Washington’ (Lawrence Lifschultz).

A few weeks after Kissinger’s departure, a faction at the US Embassy in Dhaka began covertly meeting with a group of Bangladeshi officers who were planning a coup against Sheikh Mujib. The coup of August 15, 1975 led to the assassination of Mujib and 40 family members; it led to the bayoneting to death of his closest former political associates a few months later (Hitchens).
Kissinger is still influential, as evidenced by his having been invited as the keynote speaker in a September 2010 conference on Indo-China hosted by the US State department. So, are his policies: the recent coup attempt in Ecuador (September 2010) harkens back to Kissinger’s policy in Latin America which saw the overthrow and murder of Chile’s popularly elected president Salvador Allende. Observers draw parallels between Vietnam-Cambodia and Afghanistan-Pakistan; Kissinger had authorised the war to bleed over from Vietnam into Cambodia in the 1970s, similar to how one sees the war bleed over from Afghanistan into Pakistan today. Fred Branfman reminds us of Kissinger’s criminal record in Indo-China, ‘During [his time as National Security Adviser for Richard Nixon and Secretary of State for Gerald Ford, from January 1969 until the fall of Saigon in April 1975] Kissinger needlessly prolonged U.S. war-making in which 20,853 Americans were killed and an officially U.S.-estimated 7,860,013 Indochinese were murdered, maimed or made homeless…’ (Huffington Post, September 28, 2010). So, is it not pertinent to ask the US ambassador-at-large when he speaks of his ‘disappointment’ in his government’s role during 1971, but are you are `less’ disappointed today?

Today, when things are so much worse? When the magnitude of USA’s ‘full spectrum dominance policy’ ravages Iraq and Afghanistan, when it bleeds over into Pakistan? When the ‘extraordinary level of deceit’ (Brian Willson) which masks its brazen nature is beyond all norms of human decency. When men of the moral calibre of Archer Blood are no longer to be seen. Neither in the US Embassy in Dhaka, or any place else.
Rapp’s credentials as war crimes envoy rest to a large extent on having served at the UN tribunal dealing with genocide in Rwanda; in 2001, he led the prosecution in the Media Trial against leaders of RTLM radio station and Kangura newspaper for inciting the Rwandan genocide of 1994, in which some 800,000 Rwandans were killed.

What is less known is that it was not ‘traditional tribal rivalries’ which led to the genocide, but international capital, assisted by the US government and the IMF, which ‘systematically reduced Rwanda to a state of poverty, famine and genocidal civil war.’ Until the late 1980s, Rwanda had a reasonably healthy economy, half devoted to agriculture, the other half to export production of coffee, a major source of public finances. Population growth was negligible (3.2%), inflation was low, food imports minimal. The first blow which eventually destroyed the Rwandan economy was struck when large US coffee traders persuaded Washington to undermine the international quota system. Coffee prices to Rwandan producers soon fell by 50 per cent while retail coffee prices remained constant; the difference was pocketed by powerful international traders. In 1990, the Rwandan government, in need of outside financing, turned to the IMF; the latter obliged by setting conditions: trade liberalisation, currency devaluation, limitations on the price to be paid to coffee growers. Inflation followed as growers could no longer recover their costs; in 1992, desperate coffee-growers uprooted 300,000 coffee trees. ‘The economy collapsed along with government finances. Society disintegrated and civil war arose out of chaos.’ (See Richard Moore’s discussion of Michel Chossudovsky, The Globalization of Poverty and the New World Order, 2002).

The ‘traditional tribal rivalries’ story endlessly regurgitated on the western media, which has become commonsense in the west, overlooks the Rwandan government’s accusation that France played an ‘active role’ in the 1994 genocide in which some 800,000 people were killed. That France was aware of the ‘preparations for the genocide’, that it ‘helped train the ethnic Hutu militia perpetrators.’ An independent Rwandan commission has named 33 senior French military and political figures including former president Francois Mitterand, the then prime minister Edouard Balladour, two others who later became prime ministers Alain Juppe, Dominique de Villepin. Rwanda insists, they should be prosecuted.

French president Nicholas Sarkozy’s response? On his visit to Rwanda, the first-ever by a French head of state in a quarter of century, Sarkozy said, the international community, including France had suffered from ‘a kind of blindness’. But he refused to apologise—not that it would have brought back the dead, or helped restore the limbs of those maimed—for France’s ‘political errors’.

At a press briefing in Geneva, in January 2010, ambassador Rapp had claimed that the United States had been ‘a leader [in international justice] from the time of Nuremburg.’
But surely evasiveness, deceit, lies and blindness, are not the qualities of leadership?
As Bangladesh struggles to bring to justice war criminals of 1971, there are many more, and far beyond, who should be tried. For, as Harold Pinter had said, the documentation exists. We just need to begin talking about it. Loudly.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 01:36 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Your idea of what the Constitutional government of the USA is supposed to be is not what our founders designed it to be. We're going back to basics. That's what has all the left up in arms. The fact is the left does not want a real constutional government.
What we have is not what was designed either... First of all we were not supposed to have more than one representative for every 30K; and they did try to hold to that number for a while, until the parties which were not accounted for in the constitution either found the loop hole in the wording and locked in the number of reprentatives so that government might be managed by the parties... Do you think this is what was intended by the constitution, and if so, why was the number of reps not fixed by them, and why were parties not provided for???

Inertia was built into the constitution, but parties build inertia onto inertia so that to make something happen no matter how necessary, one must first move the parties, and get the parties to move the pokey old government...

And my Idea of the constitution has everything to do with what they sought to accomplish with it, and it is in the light of what they sought and have failed to reach that I judge it... And their goals are clearly stated in the preamble for all to read, and not one of those aims has been met... They have been successful in defense, but only by the accident of geography and not because of intent or provision... And the defense we have most needed -from our fellow citizens has been entirely lacking... We see that we went to war with each other because the moral argument was not made against human property, or because the moral argument failed before the lust for money... And so, as a house divided we killed each other, some in defense of the constitution, and some in defense of their way of life with its human property which they thought the constitution protected... In fact, the constitution, for the survival of the nation, accepted clear contradictions so that division was deferred till we had gathered our strength, and could endure a civil war... never the less, though we have fought a war of independence and a war of the rebellion, and have defended the constitution on a thousand or more battle fields, we the people have yet to recieve the goods promised by the constitution, and daily see less of them...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 01:43 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Why do you make groundless assumptions about whom i like or dislike?

I don't see any evidence that the country has ever abandoned the constitution, and i certainly don't see any plausible devotion to the constitution on the part of the tea baggers. In fact, the evidence is pretty good that the tea baggers haven't read and understood the constitution.
True enough old fox... The problem is as Jefferson stated, that people do not easily change their forms... The devotion to the constitution is in bred and cultured in this people, but it does not do what it was designed to do... At this point it is the most disappointing failure ever produced by human kind... It formed an unequal relationship out of a false ideology, and we might still be doing well enough were it not for the fact that a slight inequality was turned into a great inequality for the usual justification of self interest...
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 02:12 pm
@djjd62,
And in the City of New York 1712.

Joe(The natives once lived in Africa)Nation
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 02:15 pm
@Setanta,
Why do you make groundless assumptions about who I like or dislike? Who brought up the Tea Party? Why do you dislike Tea Party Americans?
0 Replies
 
 

 
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