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The creation of everything... How?

 
 
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 01:46 pm
There is a theory on how this universe was created... It is called 'The Big Bang' However it is based on the fact that something happened billions of years ago and that before it happened there was 'nothing' But how can there have been nothing because for the big bang to have happened it requires atoms to have reacted and if there was nothing before the big bang it means that there were no atoms so surely something must have started it all? A greater being or maybe more than one but surely something must have been there to start these atoms reacting? Surely there must have been something that made these atoms and decided to make it happen? Surely it is not perceivable for there to have been NOTHING for now at this point in time there is so much and so how could there have been nothing before for all of this to be created surely something must or someone must have started it?!?!
 
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 03:33 pm
@TheThinker,
Never was the name "TheThinker" less apt. I think the universe just happened. I don't think there "had" to be anything before, and I don't think that "?!?!" makes a cogent philosophical argument.
MrSandman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:08 pm
@TheThinker,
I know it's a confusing thought to consider. Similar to eternity or any other theory on how/why we're here. There is nothing wrong with trying to understand these things, but such pursuits should be framed with the underlying idea that it's really unknowable. At least in our present carbon-based form.

That said, there is some controversy in the scientific "world" about the Big Bang and Intelligent Design. I'd suggest you google that and you'll see there is less support for the random creation and more for Intelligent Design. Don't misunderstand that to be the answer, though. There is no answer; only theories. We only see the affects and postulate based off what we know now.

Consider, at one time, we thought the universe revolved around the Earth.

Don't be fall into the trap that it's true because people who are much smarter than us say it's true. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. They just have a much more convincing way of guessing than the rest of us. Smile
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:15 pm
@TheThinker,
TheThinker wrote:

There is a theory on how this universe was created... It is called 'The Big Bang' However it is based on the fact that something happened billions of years ago and that before it happened there was 'nothing'.
There wasn't "nothing". There was "we don't know". Those are very different things.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:33 pm
@MrSandman,
I have argued somewhere in these threads, that all efforts to understand the great Cosmic Situation have only entertainment value. Given our very nature (perhaps "our carbon-based form" as Mr. Sandman put it) we are no more equipped physically to ask the proper questions (if this makes sense: "proper questions") than would a couple of ants--even the two most intelligent ants--to have any grasp of what we are doing right now. As such, with reference to "ultimate questions" I am a skeptic.
MrSandman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 06:01 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

I have argued somewhere in these threads, that all efforts to understand the great Cosmic Situation have only entertainment value. Given our very nature (perhaps "our carbon-based form" as Mr. Sandman put it) we are no more equipped physically to ask the proper questions (if this makes sense: "proper questions") than would a couple of ants--even the two most intelligent ants--to have any grasp of what we are doing right now. As such, with reference to "ultimate questions" I am a skeptic.


Yes: a thousand times yes! I think you put it much better than I. To start a discussion like this without really knowing what questions we are, or should be asking, is really the issue. Well put!

It's not that it's wrong to discuss, or a flame on the original poster. I find some topics/ideas really fun to think on. I just think there needs to be the affirmation that, in our present form, we lack the ability to provide a singularly definitive answer.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 06:40 pm
@TheThinker,
I find it amusing that the same people who can not buy into the concept that the universe just came into being have little problem buying into the concept that a god of some kind just came into being and created the universe.

Moving the whole issue back one large step by adding some all powerful creator seem hardly helpful in any way.
rosborne979
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 07:09 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

I find it amusing that the same people who can not buy into the concept that the universe just came into being have little problem buying into the concept that a god of some kind just came into being and created the universe.

I agree.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 07:25 pm
@rosborne979,
JLNobody wrote:

I have argued somewhere in these threads, that all efforts to understand the great Cosmic Situation have only entertainment value. Given our very nature (perhaps "our carbon-based form" as Mr. Sandman put it) we are no more equipped physically to ask the proper questions (if this makes sense: "proper questions") than would a couple of ants--even the two most intelligent ants--to have any grasp of what we are doing right now. As such, with reference to "ultimate questions" I am a skeptic.




rosborne979 wrote:

BillRM wrote:

I find it amusing that the same people who can not buy into the concept that the universe just came into being have little problem buying into the concept that a god of some kind just came into being and created the universe.

I agree.


I love both of these answers.
0 Replies
 
G H
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 08:06 pm
@TheThinker,
Quote:
...before it happened there was 'nothing' But how can there have been nothing...

You've hardly conceived a total absence if you're worried about a nomological system, a set of rules, or some brand of "common sense" being obeyed that itself wouldn't exist or be effective yet. Nothing lacks everything, including a capacity to prevent something.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 10:17 pm
@contrex,
Contrex, I think that "The Thinker" is an apt name. He enjoys thinking about problems and shows the courage to submit his thoughts to us for our judgements.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 12:01 am
@TheThinker,
Traditionally, the big bang is thought of as a four dimensional explosion of physical matter and energy.
"Before" the big bang is a bit misleading since this event could be seen as the start of time. In fact, I think the whole linear progression model we use to understand this may be misleading in that it dictates a "before" and "after" simply because we have specified an event.

It is the same that happens when we speak of "outside" the universe. Our understanding of the concepts "inside" and "outside", and our spatial orientation makes it seem a fair question what is "outside everything".

For myself I tend to think of the big bang as the first and only conscious moment in the history of the universe. Every other event is a sub-division of this moment, and the universe itself is a "thought" happening in a field of potential quantum configuration. I am thinking of consciousness here as a chain reaction of information, a non physical attribute to the big bang, the contrast by which physical matter takes it's form and distinction. Not something that evolved within the physical world, but something that is as fundamental to reality as matter itself.
I know this is very speculative and intuitive, but it serves to give a different perception by which it is perhaps easier to see the big bang as one ongoing and indivisible moment. In it we are perhaps able to identify states of being, or moments, that fit in our conceptual layout as before or after or somwhere in between this explosion. But this linear quality that we sometimes assign to it may be entirely provided by the conditions of our perception, and not an attribute of the described events.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 09:37 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz..."this linear quality that we sometimes assign to it may be entirely provided by the conditions of our perception, and not an attribute of the described events."

Excellent post, Cyracuz. As you know, I apply this principle to virtually all of our understanding of Reality. We see as we ARE, i.e., the world of our experience is largely (if not entirely) a reflection of our nature (tat tvam asi).

Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 10:41 am
@TheThinker,
TheThinker wrote:

There is a theory on how this universe was created... It is called 'The Big Bang' However it is based on the fact that something happened billions of years ago and that before it happened there was 'nothing' But how can there have been nothing because for the big bang to have happened it requires atoms to have reacted and if there was nothing before the big bang it means that there were no atoms so surely something must have started it all? A greater being or maybe more than one but surely something must have been there to start these atoms reacting? Surely there must have been something that made these atoms and decided to make it happen? Surely it is not perceivable for there to have been NOTHING for now at this point in time there is so much and so how could there have been nothing before for all of this to be created surely something must or someone must have started it?!?!


Well who says the universe came from "nothing" anyways? For all we know the universe has always been "something". Sure it could have been a singularity or perhaps the expansion and contraction of that singularity.

The funny thing is. You suppose a god or some being was behind it. Well where did this god or being get all the stuff to make the universe then? Did it just use it's magical powers and snap it's god fingers and say "Presto, atom makko!"

We are delving into quantum physics where even the certainty of things is completely uncertain. Virtual particles is what makes mayonnaise not runny. That our universe is actually just the "left over" of two types of quantum particles springing into existence and neutralizing each other. Where are these virtual particles coming from? We don't know yet. We have some possible ideas but nothing substantial yet.

To make the claim that there must be some being or god behind it without any evidence to back that up is the worse explanation you can give for it. Because then you must be honest and ask, where did this being or beings or god come from? If you say that god always existed then why couldn't the universe have always existed?

I think the biggest problem is that you are trying to personalize the problem and insist that some personality must be behind it since you can't seem to grasp any natural phenomena at work.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 10:47 am
@Krumple,
Agreed...
0 Replies
 
TheThinker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 10:59 am
@TheThinker,
In fact I didn't actually base my ideas on the idea that 'God' started the universe I simply asked the question surely something or someone did and in my question I actually paid homage to the most popular scientific reason for the creation of the universe. I did not assume that 'god' Created the universe so I am sorry for your arrogant assumptions. And to be perfectly honest with you I ask these questions because I am interested in other peoples views and I do not assume I am right. Look at my other questions/discussions and see what you think. And I am only thirteen and I think about everything a lot hence my name... 'TheThinker'
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 11:29 am
@TheThinker,
Quote:
started the universe I simply asked the question surely something or someone did


And there your problem assuming that "someone" or "some thing" started the universe.

Before the universe started there was no time and no space ...............and there is no reason to assume that normal human logic that apply after the universe started somehow apply before the universe started.

In fact apply to what before space and time began?
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 11:36 am
@TheThinker,
TheThinker wrote:

In fact I didn't actually base my ideas on the idea that 'God' started the universe I simply asked the question surely something or someone did and in my question I actually paid homage to the most popular scientific reason for the creation of the universe. I did not assume that 'god' Created the universe so I am sorry for your arrogant assumptions. And to be perfectly honest with you I ask these questions because I am interested in other peoples views and I do not assume I am right. Look at my other questions/discussions and see what you think. And I am only thirteen and I think about everything a lot hence my name... 'TheThinker'


You didn't actually say a god, but your question is phrased in such a way that it implies some kind of being. I didn't just focus on that being, being a god. But if it were not a god, then fine, my position would remain the same. If there were such a being, regardless of what that being was, where did it come from and why wouldn't it's existence be subject it's own universe?

The point I was also trying to make is that who says the universe came from nothing? I have hear people say this, but they tend to be religious people trying to debunk the big bang theory. I don't think there is any cosmologist that make that positive claim that the universe came from nothing. Sure it is a possibility as Lawrence Krauss says, however it is only one possibility. It is also possible that the universe has always existed, and perhaps that existence was in a singularity or as a on going expansion contraction.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 06:37 pm
@JLNobody,
Thanks JL.

Yes, I know fairly well how you tend to approach these things. I was thinking about it the other day actually, how we used to have lots of conversations in the old days, but these days whenever I read one of your posts I feel no need to comment at all, since there just isn't anymore to add. Agreement makes for poor discussion sometimes Wink
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2011 07:35 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
If there were such a being, regardless of what that being was, where did it come from and why wouldn't it's existence be subject it's own universe?


Some think that the universe will culminate in one singular consciousness that will contain and percieve everything. At this point the big bang happens, which is essentially the first conscious event after reaching "completion".
The idea is as good as any, I guess, and it eliminates the paradoxical situations that arise from trying to cram this into the frames of traditional thinking.
0 Replies
 
 

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