35
   

military action against Libya

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 12:33 pm
@dyslexia,
Bahrain is an ugly business because it's religious, too. The population is Shi'ite, while the King is Sunni. Both Shi'ite and Sunni religio-political parties have been suppressed. It was really disgusting that Saudi forces marched in there to prop up the regime.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 12:37 pm
@Setanta,
I dont think that the international community has the right to pick winners and losers in civil war, it is a matter for the citizens to decide, and if they must do it through conflict then so be it. Moral and economic support for the more morally righteous I can live with, military intervention no.

Before Reagan Armed the Contra's did anyone think this was OK? Even Reagan thought that he had to do it in secret.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 12:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
The issue was decided by the call for a no-fly zone by the rebels, which was responded to when the Arab League joined the call for that action. I seen no reason to describe this as choosing sides in a civil war, and any comparison to the American civil war and the attitudes of Palmerston and Louis Bonapart is just silly. I still haven't had an answer from you about who was the moral equivalent of Kadaffi, and who was the moral equivalent of the Libyan rebels.
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 12:46 pm
I assume all in attendance are aware that both Dennis Kucinich and Louis Farakhan are calling Bork Obunga a lunatic and Kucinich is calling for impeaching him...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 12:47 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I still haven't had an answer from you about who was the moral equivalent of Kadaffi, and who was the moral equivalent of the Libyan rebels.
I did however take the position that the moral claims of the opposing sides in a civil war are irrelevant when talking about justification for the international community making military strikes on one sides ground forces. There is a country mile between setting up a "no fly" zone and bombing military convoys of the side you don't like, as the Arab League is currently pointing out.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 12:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Translation: you cannot sustain the analogy, so you're backing out of it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:06 pm
Al Jazeera is going to play a crucial role in the propaganda war. How much coverage they give the Libyan rebels will in large measure determine the success of Kadaffi's rants about a crusade against Islam.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:09 pm
@Irishk,
All of this should remind us that history is not over. We have not seen the last of national rivalries and enmity, betrayal and oppression. The notion that there are accepted standards of international justice that a cohesive "international community" will persistently enforce is contrary to nearly everything we can observe in a still very fractous world. It is both naive and dangerous to buy into such nonsense. Those who urge us to act on these "principles", buit who don't actively do so themselves are not our friends.

The Russians are still taking cheap shots at their former Cold War rivals; the Arab League continues hedging its bets (it is more than intertesting that Saudi Arabia & Kuwait haven't even contributed any money to the peacekeeping effort in Libya); and the European Community appears to be breaking down along increasingly familiar lines, with Germany working hard to separate itself from the other powers.

Adm. Mullen's comments quoted above are a reminder that we too are hedging our bets on this venture - and with good reason. From Ghadaffi's perspective, it might not be either difficult or risky to extend the conflict betting on a lack of staying power of the intervenors. From Vietnam to Nicaragua to Afghanistan that has been the strategy of the oppressive regimes we were trying to defeat or contain. We're too big to escape this stuff entirely, but do need to be very coldly calculating about the degree of our real self-interest in each situation.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:28 pm
As a cynic, my political advice would be to figuratively look around saying: "What? What? What are ya talkin' about?" My military advice would be to pound the living bejeezus out of the Libyan army, and then get the Hell out fast.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:35 pm
@Setanta,
Probably an effective military tactic, but unlikely to happen given the nature of the key players here, and among our allies.

In wars of all kinds victory is the exclusive result of one side giving up hope. That takes violence and the palpable threat of growing disaster - things that aren't the likely components of any UN sanctioned, joint undertaking of timid powers, each recalculating its self-interest every day.

Like you I hope for a swift, positive outcome, but I am skeptical. The willingness of the French and British in this effort is encouraging, but will it last?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:36 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The situations are not analogous. I notice you have failed to answer my question about which side was the moral equivalent of Kadaffi and which side was the moral equivalent of the rebels.


There are a couple posts on Democratic Underground that seem to think Kadaffy and Lincoln might be comparable figures.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=696055&mesg_id=696055

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=696055&mesg_id=696451

I find the comparison implausible myself.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:42 pm
@Setanta,
I think it's as you stated earlier, that Moussa is either naive about the reality of what it takes to enforce the UN resolution (i.e., preemptive strikes at his air defenses), or...he's perfectly willing to put the lives of the coalition pilots at risk should they try to enforce the no-fly zone with the regime's air defense mechanisms still in place. Sounds like it's a little of both. I had to go back and read the resolution and here's what it says (seems to be written in a way that's subject to interpretation by any given nation)...

Quote:
4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

“5. Recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of paragraph 4; …
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:47 pm
@georgeob1,
The world is very fortunate that i'm not the benevolent dictator of the United States.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 01:49 pm
@oralloy,
Those idiots ignore that the South started that war before Lincoln had even been inaugurated. Kind of like sucker-punching someone, and then crying when you get the holy livin' crap pounded out of ya . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 02:15 pm
BBC is broadcasting the press conference with the Admiral right now. Some joker asked him about the attack on a Libyan armored column approaching Benghazi, and he said they were advancing on Benghazi, so they took them under attack. So the joker asks him what the Libyans would have to do to avoid attack and the Admiral just looked at him, so he asked if they should stop advancing. The Admiral said: "That would be a real good sign."
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 02:33 pm
@Setanta,
Vice Admiral Gortney. I like him. He had the same curt responses in his briefing yesterday.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 02:35 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Some joker asked him about the attack on a Libyan armored column approaching Benghazi, and he said they were advancing on Benghazi, so they took them under attack.
Hopefully he was also asked about journalist accounts that have a large part of the column being attacked while retreating....
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 02:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
If you want to know things like that, watch the press conference.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 03:05 pm
@Setanta,
Pound the shiet out of the military and arm the rebels to the teeth, than get our asses out of the country.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 03:09 pm
@RABEL222,
Amen.
 

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