35
   

military action against Libya

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2011 05:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
You got that right! I wonder why so many are blind to these facts. Not a peep when GW Bush had his "shock and awe" campaign.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2011 06:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Not a peep when GW Bush had his "shock and awe" campaign.
It was good news television produced by the same people who we rely on to tell us if it is bad .
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 05:37 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Although Gates is saying we should not arm the rebels, Obama said he's going to keep that option open.
I think it is pretty clear that Gates advised Obama that we should not take military action against Libya at all, and we know that Obama went with the chick hawks instead. It must kill Gates to need to sit in front of Congress and say anything nice about this campaign at all.
If only that class would die so easily...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 05:39 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Yea, Gates is the right man to advise, but Obama has his own agenda; war presidents are remembered, while all others just fade away. Obama is going to leave a lot of scars as the first black president, because his attention is needed in the home front where too many are unemployed and struggling. Spending millions on bombs is not a good idea no matter how you look at the Libyan crisis.
He should be running for president of Libya... They have at least as many darks skinned folks as Detroit, but not as many guns...
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 10:43 am
I'm glad to see a fair degree of consistency of position among those who opposed the Iraq war, but then cheering for Obama's attempt at regime change after ranting against Bush's would have been too obviously hypocritical.

I would appreciate a greater degree of consistency of position among those who supported the Iraq war. Cheering for Bush's regime change and ranting against Obama's is too obviously hypocritical.

Having said this, there certainly remains reasons to criticize the Obama Administration for its efforts as there were to criticize the Bush Administration for its.

I watched Obama's address to the nation on Libya and thought:

The speech was written and delivered to defend and promote Obama. One can argue that whenever a president argues for or attempts to explain the position of America in some world event, he is arguing for or attempting to explain his position, but I can't recall another presidential speech where what may have been the subtext was so blatantly the text. The man's constant use of "I" rather than "We," or "America" underscores his narcissism. Again, all presidents to one extent or the other may mean "I" when they say "We," but they have, at least, the good sense to use the appropriate pronouns in a speech intended to unify the American people around a particular position.

And his insistence on directly addressing his critics and referencing what he believes to be the failures of his predecessor in such speeches demonstrates a lack of maturity and anchors them in partisan politics.

The speech was also filled with seeming contradictions and did nothing to clearly explain what is a personal political problem for this president, but a broader, fundamental problem for American Foreign Policy:

Why Libya?

Why not any and every other place in the world where tyrants are killing and oppressing their people?

In fact he attempted to address the question, but I heard no answer beyond:

"We can only do it when US interests are at stake, and I say they are at stake with Libya."

Yes, he made a feeble attempt at arguing that if Kaddafi is permitted to crush the Libyan rebellion it would somehow influence the current wave of democracy spreading throughout the Middle East. Maybe it would, and maybe it wouldn't, but why is a democratic Middle East in our interests, but not a democratic sub-Saharan Africa?

Is the premise that the US should not support the struggle for democracy in a single nation unless and until that nation becomes one in a chain of similarly striving nations? Is that a practical requirement for intervention, that we should only get involved when the rewards are much larger?

Meanwhile a very large and obvious elephant stood by him at the podium and was ignored: Oil.

There are only two reasons America give a fig for what happens in this region of the world: Oil and Israel, and if it wasn't for oil, Israel would not be in jeopardy.

Why spend billions of dollars and risk American lives to preserve the flow of oil to our European allies?

One can argue that by preserving the supply of oil to Europe, worldwide demand and therefore prices for the US are being controlled, but then why spend billions of dollars and risk American lives to maintain control over the price of oil?

Furthermore, why spend billions of dollars funding oil exploration in Brazil by a private company with connections to George Soros?

And why do either when we can spend billions and not risk lives on developing our own oil resources here in America or just offshore?

The Gulf Oil Spill was a disaster, but hardly of the proportions doomsayer environmentalists were predicting, and it was never necessary to send our service men and women to the Gulf to kill or be killed in an effort to address the disaster.

Obama and the democrats are Keynesians. They believe that the government should use taxpayer dollars to stimulate the economy. Why do they believe that it is better for our economy if those tax dollars are spent in South America and the Middle East rather than in the US?

Having told us military action in Libya was in our interests, but failing to explain what those interests were and how bombing Libyans supported them, Obama kept returning to the humanitarian reasons for intervention; how Khadafy was prepared to raze Benghazi and slaughter its people:

Quote:
It was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen.


Which, of course, leads us back to the question of why aren't we intervening in any number of other nations around the world where there is wide scale human rights violations?

Not in our interests!

When a president gives a speech that is so vague, contradictory and partisan as this one, it leaves his critics plenty of opportunities to assume the worst, and rightly so.
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 10:55 am
Reports are out now that we just bombed the rebels by mistake. This is turning into one collosal glittering fuckup. Is the left gonna demand an investigation into this man-made tragedy? I don't think overseas contingencies are supposed to bomb our "friends" that contain al queda who Obama said we are at war with.

Oh My God
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 11:54 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
When you screw up in the first place to go into a sovereign country with a civil war, what follows will inevitably become a bigger mess. Those are facts that Obama seems to disregard. I used to think he was a smart man, but he's disappointed the country in too many ways - which I have delineated over the past two years. He's close to a C- in my books, and it's getting worse.
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 01:45 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
bombed the rebels by mistake

There are no safe targets from the air. Pilots only get a few seconds' glimpses or tiny ant-sized images and bingo goes the bomb.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 01:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I used to think he was a smart man


It might be a case of tunnel vision education where one excels in a few areas but totally ignorant in most. Bill Clinton was another case. He didn't know anything about Yugoslavia or Slavs and Turkish rule which set one group of Slav against another. The Janissaries were slaves from Christians who were abandoned and converted to Muslims and served in the Turkish army.

Quote:
One of the most exotic Ottoman institutions used slavery to seek out persons of talent, with potential advantages for both the state and the slave. This was the "devshirme" or child-contribution, established in the middle 1300s.

When recruits for the military were needed, Christian boys were confiscated from the population as slaves and converted to Islam. While there were no regular timetables or set quotas, perhaps a thousand boys were taken on average per year. As slaves, these boys became absolute dependents of the sultan. They were not used for the army alone: after growing up and being trained, they took on all kinds of roles in the imperial establishment. They were treated well and could aspire to power and wealth. The brightest of these children were educated in the law, foreign languages, the sciences, sports and administrative skills and then entered the sultan's "Inner Service". Promoted on the basis of skill, they could grow up to be provincial governors, treasury officials, physicians, architects, judges and high officials, and helped to run the empire. They could marry, if their careers permitted it, and their children were free Muslims. So desirable were these positions during the Ottoman heyday, that some rural Christian families bribed officials to select their sons. Because the "devshirme" was levied as a tribute on the conquered, it involved only the non-Muslim population, but some Muslim families also bribed officials to select their children illegally, in the hope of placing relatives in powerful offices. Some members of the "ulema", the religion-based legal and educational system, came from this background. So did members of the "divan" or council of ministers and its supporting scribes and officials, including governors appointed to run provinces.

Levied children with less talent went into the military and formed the "janissary" infantry, the 30,000 men kept under arms as garrisons in key fortresses and as the core of the sultan's army. The janissaries were supported by specialists such as armor makers and an Artillery Corps supervised by experts, some of them renegades from Western Europe.


http://staff.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture3.html
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 02:14 pm
@talk72000,
Quote:
It might be a case of tunnel vision education where one excels in a few areas but totally ignorant in most. Bill Clinton was another case. He didn't know anything about Yugoslavia or Slavs and Turkish rule which set one group of Slav against another
Clinton is a fast study, so that does not matter much. The problem was a combination of not caring and thinking that it was Europes problem to deal with. It seemed to escape his notice that Europe had since the war never developed the ability to operate outside of the US lead NATO structure, so when America stood back they were unable to act. At the time Clinton viewed defense cuts as his main piggybank for all of the social program dreams that he had, he was very resistant to using the military regardless of the justification for doing so. A lot of people had to die before Clinton was willing to saddle up.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 03:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
What's more, while Obama's repeated assertion that this is not an American, but an international mission is of course legally accurate, it obscures the fact that without the US this operation, although now officially led by a Canadian general, would simply not have taken place.

"We have not been the leading nation, we have let Sarkozy and to a lesser extent Britain lead this publicly," argued Meyer. "But in terms of actual military material, the US is providing 90 to 95 percent of everything that gets blown up in Libya. It's just a simple force projection formula. There aren't other countries with the ability to do that. So it is an American mission."

Even if the US military scales back its role in Libya, it will still remain the essential backbone of the operation.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,14960964,00.html

Which is why Obama sacrifices his own credibility when he conducts a nationwide speech and paints a picture of the US being but a reluctant one amongst many. He further suffers when the American PR machine trys to sell the story that the Brits and the French are the instigators and the managers of this military action. The American people may or may not be gullible enough to swallow the Obama "message"....the Arab Street most certainly is not.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 08:13 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:

Quote:
I used to think he was a smart man


It might be a case of tunnel vision education where one excels in a few areas but totally ignorant in most. Bill Clinton was another case. He didn't know anything about Yugoslavia or Slavs and Turkish rule which set one group of Slav against another. The Janissaries were slaves from Christians who were abandoned and converted to Muslims and served in the Turkish army.

Quote:
One of the most exotic Ottoman institutions used slavery to seek out persons of talent, with potential advantages for both the state and the slave. This was the "devshirme" or child-contribution, established in the middle 1300s.

When recruits for the military were needed, Christian boys were confiscated from the population as slaves and converted to Islam. While there were no regular timetables or set quotas, perhaps a thousand boys were taken on average per year. As slaves, these boys became absolute dependents of the sultan. They were not used for the army alone: after growing up and being trained, they took on all kinds of roles in the imperial establishment. They were treated well and could aspire to power and wealth. The brightest of these children were educated in the law, foreign languages, the sciences, sports and administrative skills and then entered the sultan's "Inner Service". Promoted on the basis of skill, they could grow up to be provincial governors, treasury officials, physicians, architects, judges and high officials, and helped to run the empire. They could marry, if their careers permitted it, and their children were free Muslims. So desirable were these positions during the Ottoman heyday, that some rural Christian families bribed officials to select their sons. Because the "devshirme" was levied as a tribute on the conquered, it involved only the non-Muslim population, but some Muslim families also bribed officials to select their children illegally, in the hope of placing relatives in powerful offices. Some members of the "ulema", the religion-based legal and educational system, came from this background. So did members of the "divan" or council of ministers and its supporting scribes and officials, including governors appointed to run provinces.

Levied children with less talent went into the military and formed the "janissary" infantry, the 30,000 men kept under arms as garrisons in key fortresses and as the core of the sultan's army. The janissaries were supported by specialists such as armor makers and an Artillery Corps supervised by experts, some of them renegades from Western Europe.


http://staff.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture3.html
With the taking of Bursa, Bureacracy entered our language... The Turks had a strange society where they were for the most part nothing and powerless while the slaves of the Sultan ran the country... Since Christians were not required to convert to Islam, but required to pay a tax that many could not pay, the Christians were forced to pay with one of their children, and thus they provided future Janissaries... In the end, when Sultans were prisoners of the Harem, and the strongest son of the Sultan no longer killed his brothers, and politicl manipulation weakened the whole institution, the Janissaries were drawn in, and eventually eliminated as an organization... But in their day, there was nothing in Europe able to withstand them..
Fido
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 08:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
It might be a case of tunnel vision education where one excels in a few areas but totally ignorant in most. Bill Clinton was another case. He didn't know anything about Yugoslavia or Slavs and Turkish rule which set one group of Slav against another
Clinton is a fast study, so that does not matter much. The problem was a combination of not caring and thinking that it was Europes problem to deal with. It seemed to escape his notice that Europe had since the war never developed the ability to operate outside of the US lead NATO structure, so when America stood back they were unable to act. At the time Clinton viewed defense cuts as his main piggybank for all of the social program dreams that he had, he was very resistant to using the military regardless of the justification for doing so. A lot of people had to die before Clinton was willing to saddle up.

I think the military was up front with its limitations in regard to territorial war... There are certain rules of war that should never be disregarded, and when Mr. Bush was warned, he simply replaced the generals who said Iraq, and Afghanistan were not good ideas... Lincoln talked about shovelling fleas to illustrate the problem of getting people to the front... Frederick the Great said if you try to hold everywhere you hold no where...Consider that in Vietnam, only ten percent of soldiers saw combat, and they took 90% of the casualties... No General worth his salt would ever give the choice of battlefields or interior lines to the enemy... Our effort at such great distance is felt very little... We simply cannot afford to stay, nor find any way to disengage... The price of empire is crushing to the country which must bear it...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 11:48 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
The opposition movement burst into play without a well-organized leadership or institutional support. It was spontaneous and even the military personnel who defected to it did not bring with them the heavy arms, infrastructure and organizational skills necessary to make the difference in combat. Although passionate, the rebels lack a centralized, coherent leadership, operational capabilities and command-and-control decision-making. Most lack rudimentary fighting skills.
Can the rebels bridge the widening divide between east and west and swiftly coordinate to create a powerful military organization to force Gadhafi down? This is the x-factor.
There is a real danger that a stalemate will emerge in Libya in which Gadhafi and his henchmen remain in power around Tripoli and the rebels will hold the east, around Benghazi. This would be a terrible outcome, for it would destroy Libya and embroil Western powers in a war-torn country for years. American generals, together with their European counterparts, have already alluded to the risks inherent in the Libyan venture
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/31/gerges.libya.ghadafi/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Professor Obama jumped in anyway. So much for rumors that Hillary had finally found something that she is good at other than playing victim.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2011 11:50 pm
@Fido,
Are you talking about the Ottomans?
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 06:00 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Are you talking about the Ottomans?
I have read about them and find them interesting, especially in the end when cruelty alone could not keep them in power... The price of empire dragged them down rather than enriching them, and the politics of the Harem kept the Sultan powerless... Gone were the days of absolute power... Now each faction had its candidate, and no party could rule without some accomodation of the other... We have much the same situation here where our weakness of character invites attack, and the parties are doing well, with each having a share of government, but with the people oppressed and increasingly hopeless... They were talking about it on the news today, about the percentage of people facing retirement age without hope of enough income to supoort them in retirement... That is the whole point of reverse mortages; to squeeze the last wealth out of people before they leave this life, leaving nothing of capital to no heir... I know, that the collective pain of this people must some day confront their broken dreams, and together admit that all their work has been for nothing... They have but one retirement plan: To drop dead...
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 06:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
they're nice for putting your feet on
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 09:52 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

they're nice for putting your feet on
As strange as it may seem, as a people and a country, despite their cruelty, their contribution to Western Culture is unique and lasting, and they have been the most willing to make use of Western Technology, and embrace Western Ideas, and it is for that reason that they have long been an allie of the West at the gateway to the East... They are a contradiction as a people, beastial in their violence, and wonderful gardeners...

Not only in the nature of the Bureaucracy, but in their advances in Mathematics they are a wonder.... The most frightening aspect of them is the lesson they offer to our leaders of how a whole people can be held in check by a nearly absolute tyranny while all essential levels of government and military are managed by slaves...

Our Bureaucratic class become slaves as the price of their educations, and these people lord over us as petty gods... I hope that some day the people will recognize that their values have totally departed from that of the Bureaucracy, and that they are ruled by people who have never been elected to anything, who owe their positions to parties or individuals in power... The tyranny of our secret police is terrifying, and the old breaches of faith of J. Edgar Hoover were but the tip of an iceburg...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 11:18 am
@Fido,
I also heard a very disheartening news on the radio this morning; CEOs gained some 27% in their salaries last year while the rest of the workers eeked out 2%.

This greed and imbalance cannot continue indefinitely.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Apr, 2011 03:16 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
when Sultans were prisoners of the Harem


That is another interesting story. Apparently Suleiman the Magnificent fell in love with one of his slaves in the Harem, a Balkan Slavic slave, she ruled and being the mother of the future sultan thus creating a tradition of the wife being a ruler. As all future sultans were half Slavs. The other thing was that the Sharia Law was put in place the Ottoman empire became more backward looking.
 

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