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military action against Libya

 
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 09:53 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm not sure that's been the issue from the pov of the US: I don't think we have any authority to go beyond securing the no fly zone, but what do I know?

No, you're correct. I forgot our mission is only to protect the Libyan civilians. It's probably good that I'm not in charge, having this faulty memory and all lol.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 12:20 pm
Libyan rebels appear to take leaf from Kadafi's playbook

Reporting from Benghazi, Libya—
The rebels of eastern Libya have found much to condemn about the police state tactics of Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi: deep paranoia, mass detentions, secret prisons and tightly scripted media tours.

But some of those same tactics appear to be creeping into the efforts of the opposition here as it seeks to stamp out lingering loyalty to Kadafi. Rebel forces are detaining anyone suspected of serving or assisting the Kadafi regime, locking them up in the same prisons once used to detain and torture Kadafi's opponents.

For a month, gangs of young gunmen have roamed the city, rousting Libyan blacks and immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa from their homes and holding them for interrogation as suspected mercenaries or government spies.

Over the last several days, the opposition has begun rounding up men accused of fighting as mercenaries for Kadafi's militias as government forces pushed toward Benghazi. It has launched nightly manhunts for about 8,000 people named as government operatives in secret police files seized after internal security operatives fled in the face of the rebellion that ended Kadafi's control of eastern Libya last month.

"We know who they are," said Abdelhafed Ghoga, the chief opposition spokesman. He called them "people with bloodstained hands" and "enemies of the revolution."

Any suspected Kadafi loyalist or spy who does not surrender, Ghoga warned, will face revolutionary "justice."

Rebels have also detained scores of Libyans they say were captured during battles with government forces in the last week or so.

On Wednesday, 55 terrified detainees were paraded in front of a busload of international journalists.

It was the first time the opposition's month-old transitional national council had organized such a controlled bus tour, and it featured some of the same restrictions placed on journalists taken on tours in Tripoli by the Kadafi regime: no interviews and no close-up photographs of prisoners.

Opposition officials who herded journalists on trips to two former internal security complexes said the restrictions were based on international conventions that prohibit public displays of prisoners of war.

The prisoners and detainees were hauled out of dank cells that stank of urine and rot — the same cells that once housed some of the dissidents now aligned with the rebel movement, known as the Feb. 17 Revolution.

But when a rowdy mass of photographers and reporters rushed the prisoners and began snapping photos and shouting questions, the carefully staged event collapsed in chaos. Soon opposition officials were hauling out prisoners for interviews and photos, all the while shouting down the detainees when they proclaimed their innocence.

One young man from Ghana bolted from the prisoners queue. He shouted in English at an American reporter: "I'm not a soldier! I work for a construction company in Benghazi! They took me from my house … "

A guard shoved the prisoner back toward the cells.

"Go back inside!" he ordered.

The guard turned to the reporter and said: "He lies. He's a mercenary."

The Ghanaian was one of 25 detainees from Chad, Niger, Sudan, Mali and Ghana described by opposition officials as mercenaries, though several of them insisted they were laborers. The officials declined to say what would become of them.

The opposition has acknowledged detaining an unspecified number of sub-Saharan Africans on suspicion of serving as Kadafi mercenaries. Human Rights Watch has described a concerted campaign in which thousands of men have been driven from their homes in eastern Libya and beaten or arrested.

Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director for the rights group in Libya, said he had been promised access to the detainees and prisoners put on display Wednesday.

Another 30 men who were paraded about were described as Libyan soldiers captured in the last week or so. Some were said to have served in the armored column that was demolished by allied airstrikes on the outskirts of Benghazi over the weekend.

Link




Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 01:33 pm
CNN is reporting as 'breaking news' that a deal has been reached for NATO to take command of the operation.

Though I could have sworn I saw this breaking news a few days ago...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 01:34 pm
@Irishk,
<sigh>
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 03:01 pm
Quote:
WASHINGTON - A senior Pentagon official says the U.S. probably will continue flying combat missions over Libya once the U.S. relinquishes command of the air campaign to NATO or others as early as this weekend.

Navy Adm. William Gortney told reporters Thursday that the U.S. role would predominantly be in support of allied partners, with refueling missions, surveillance, reconnaissance and other non-combat flights. But he also said he expects U.S. planes would continue flying some strike missions.
http://www.startribune.com/nation/118607059.html

If this happens then Obama will have broken his word
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 03:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
We arent just enforcing the no fly zone.

Its a mistake for us to be there, and I think it will end badly for us.
But attacking Libyan trooops on the ground, destroying their armor and logistics is more then just enforcing a no fly zone.

By doing that we are actively supporting the rebels, instead of just protecting civilians.
No matter how this turns out, it gonna be bad for us.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 03:30 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
No matter how this turns out, it gonna be bad for us
That is a slight exaggeration...there is no upside possible from doing nothing, but outside of spending at least 1/2 billion dollars that this will end up costing it could still be equal to doing nothing.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:09 pm
@mysteryman,
mm, I've been saying that all along; it's a lose-lose for the US. How much more of our treasure is our government going to spend there - and elsewhere? We don't have that $$$$ to be wasting it on wars (or police action) half way around the world. Our infrastructure is in bad need of maintenance, and our schools are unsafe for our children while we continue to increase class size. Our government doesn't understand priorities.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
WASHINGTON - A senior Pentagon official says the U.S. probably will continue flying combat missions over Libya once the U.S. relinquishes command of the air campaign to NATO or others as early as this weekend.

Navy Adm. William Gortney told reporters Thursday that the U.S. role would predominantly be in support of allied partners, with refueling missions, surveillance, reconnaissance and other non-combat flights. But he also said he expects U.S. planes would continue flying some strike missions.
http://www.startribune.com/nation/118607059.html

If this happens then Obama will have broken his word


Not necessarily. Let me start by reminding you that I think our involvement in this matter is a mistake that will likely end badly, so I'm not just reflexively trying to defend Obama.

But - what do you think 'enforcing a no-fly zone' means? It's not just shooting down any planes we see. It's actively degrading the enemy's anti-air abilities, which would include strike missions against tanks and anti-aircraft units and locations.

Now, I'm sure we're doing more than that, but it's an excuse that they will use to say that they aren't breaking their word; and they'll circle back to the 'no ground troops' pledge over and over. That's the real metric that Obama will be judged on here.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Like bridges...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:34 pm
Remember there was a bad guy that was replaced - the Shah of Iran and what we got is a treasure - Ayatollah Khomeni
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:40 pm
Quote:
NATO has now decided to enforce the no-fly zone over Libya. We're taking action as part of the broad international effort to protect civilians from attacks of Gadhafi," Anders Fogh Rasmussen told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "We will cooperate closely with our partners in the region and welcome their contributions."

NATO is considering enforcing a wide range of measures called for by the U.N. Security Council resolution on Libya, including the protection of civilians from Gadhafi's ground forces, Rasmussen said.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/24/libya-live-blog-coalition-airstrikes-continue-in-tripoli/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

IN other words the only thing so far agreed to is to fly over Libya and to not let Libyan aircraft fly...the US program of attacking the libyan army has not been agreed to....
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
You can't fly over Libya if their AA shoots you down. Destroying anti-aircraft abilities is part of any no-fly zone.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Destroying anti-aircraft abilities is part of any no-fly zone.
Right, but we have no agreement to attack "command and control", ammo dumps or convoys...as we have been doing over the last few days. BTW- "command and control" can mean just about anything we want it to mean, for instance we have not yet heard the justification for attacking Gaddafi's home...
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I think what he's saying is that there are two operations. NATO only agreed to enforce the no-fly zone. The U.S. will still lead the coalition in the other (harder, IMO) one.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 05:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Kinda makesya wonder don't it?
The former USSR kept it's citizens quiet with cheap vodka.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 05:15 pm
@wayne,
We drink more expensive vodka with the same effects.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2011 04:35 am
@talk72000,
This is meaningless. The United States and the UK engineered the 1953 coup which ousted the democratically elected PM and made the Shah an absolute monarch. "We" were never in the business of putting the Shah out of business. The Persians of their own accord rebelled against the Shah, preparing the way for the ayatollah. This is meaningless because the situations are not analogous.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2011 10:40 am
@Setanta,
What we will end up with in Libya will be another dictator who will take over and run the country for 10 or 20 years. this will also happen in Egypt. The chances of a peoples democracy are nil. Besides U.S. big business dont want a peoples democracy which might stop them from stealing their oil.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2011 10:58 am
@RABEL222,
So much for the turnover of control to NATO.

Quote:
U.S. likely to keep combat role after Libya shift

Posted 1h 4m ago |

WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States welcomed a partial handover for the Libyan air campaign to NATO on Thursday, but the allies apparently balked at assuming full control and the U.S. military was left in charge of the brunt of combat.
 

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