Gender and Violence

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

I have hit both males and females.
Once a guy blocked my way out of his bedroom
and I knocked the crap out of him and told him to move or I'd start screaming.

Did I tell u my Marilyn story about that ?

aidan wrote:

Once a drunk girl grabbed my phone so I couldn't call her mother to come get her - she was as big as me and an adult - and I hit her hand against the window so she'd drop it.

If an adult hits me - I'll hit them back- with absolutely no guilt.

Maybe it comes of being one of six kids and having to learn how to hold your own - but I have no moral problem defending myself.

On the other hand - I'd never even imagine hitting someone when they were asleep-even if they hit me first.

Wives have taken out their husbands that way.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

No! Men are usually much stronger than women and they could defend themselves much better.

Is it the size/strength discrepancy that makes the difference or the gender?

For instance, if the discrepancy did not cross the line of gender, what would change if anything?

A) 200lb man versus 135lb woman
B) 200lb man versus 135lb man
C) 200lb woman versus 135 man
D) 200lb woman versus 135 woman

What is different in these circumstances in your view. I think we don't bat an eye at cases B and D, but draw distinct moral differences between what is acceptable in cases A and C.

So is there a greater attention to gender or to size/strength discrepancy in terms of what we find acceptable justification of physical defense.

CalamityJane wrote:

The frying pan was somewhat a joke. I probably would not defend myself
physically, but I definitely would leave the situation, consult with the police and an attorney, and press charges. Should I have to move my belongings
from the home, I'd hire a body guard to escort me to the house.

My apologies. I mistakenly mixed you and Ceili up. Sorry for the confusion.

A
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1 Reply

@failures art,

It's the genetic mark up, failures art. Even a 135 lb. man can hurt a 200 lb.
woman more than vice versa. Weight doesn't necessarily translate to strength and power, on the contrary, a 200 lb. women might be less mobile and more fragile than a well exercised and lean 135 lb. man.

It's safe to say however, that men are far more violent than women. Yes,
there are exceptions, but it's not the rule. I abhor violence in general, even
in kids. Lately, kids have become extremely violent towards each other as we've seen on youtube and news from around the country.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

It's the genetic mark up, failures art.

I want you to expand on this. It feels like you're saying that men should tolerate more violence upon them than women.

CalamityJane wrote:

Even a 135 lb. man can hurt a 200 lb.
woman more than vice versa. Weight doesn't necessarily translate to strength and power, on the contrary, a 200 lb. women might be less mobile and more fragile than a well exercised and lean 135 lb. man.

Okay, yes, but aren't we now moving away from the question at hand? The point here is to get to the nature of why gender plays into situations and does it override all other considerations.

So forget a simple measure of weight. It was never meant to suggest that weight alone constituted strength. I was only providing some sort of example of how physical presence that is normally used to distinguish why men hitting women is wrong. Of course a 135lb man can hurt a 200lb woman. For that matter a 95lb woman can hurt a 200lb man.

So do we abide by some sort of physical attribute or simply by gender? Are we simply taking the make up of our species (i.e. - that women tend to be physically weaker) and then applying it across the board even in cases that contradict it?

CalamityJane wrote:

It's safe to say however, that men are far more violent than women. Yes,
there are exceptions, but it's not the rule. I abhor violence in general, even
in kids. Lately, kids have become extremely violent towards each other as we've seen on youtube and news from around the country.

A story from college. There was this girl who lived in my building. Her response to almost anything was to hit guys on the arm (perhaps a means of flirtation?) . More notoriously, however, she was known for kicking guys in the crotch. She did this a lot. Hence her college nickname: "junk kicker." Why she did it so much and for what reason varied, but she was known for basically hitting guys a lot. She was not a little girl by any means, and I'm sure many of the guys she hit were much more physically capable of greater damage. As an RA, I was given the task to confront her about her behavior. I asked her if she thought what she was doing was acceptable. She'd say she was just playing. I asked her if guys punched her in her arm as hard as they could or kicked her if it would be acceptable. She said no. I asked why. She said: "I'm a girl." Eventually, one student who she had repeatedly kicked in the crotch publicly (perhaps for the purposes of humiliation) got fed up. She had kicked him and was laughing, he got up and pushed her into a wall. They both received reprimand from the university, but after the event he was treated very poorly. At one level, he was that kid who got beat up by a girl. On another, he was that guy who hit a girl and that was just not going to be tolerated.

I, in general, agree that men show more violent behavior, but that must also come with the understanding that we often define violence in male terms and behaviors. I think women are far more violent than what is acknowledged. Perhaps more directly, I know I've interacted with some women who treat men in physical ways they'd not tolerate.

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2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Did I tell u my Marilyn story about that ?

Yeah - when she wanted to drive drunk to the crack house with her kid in the car and you wouldn't let her go?

No, this was different. This was when this 'friend' of mine was interrogating me about why I liked my boyfriend and not him as a boyfriend and started to try to talk me into liking him in a different way, if you know what I mean.
I wasn't having it. He was/is 6'4 and an outdoorsman/camper/rafter/hiker person - I don't know how much he weighed - but I was/am 5'4 and 120 pounds.

I didn't even hesitate to show him my displeasure. Sometimes the element of surprise is a small woman's best friend.
Let's put it this way, he moved aside and let me leave the room. No harm done to either one of us.
By the way, we're still friends to this day. We talked about it and he understood where I was coming from. I didn't hurt him. I just let him know it was not okay for him to use his size to intimidate me or hold me somewhere I didn't want to be against my will.

Quote:

Wives have taken out their husbands that way.

Yeah - horrible. And husbands have taken out their wives that way. And parents their children, and children their parents.
I find it very cowardly.

In terms of women hitting men being more acceptable - I don't go for that.
I remember one time I was yelling at my husband about something and we lived in this cute little apartment with a tiny little kitchen and he was/is the most mild-mannered guy - actually almost never even raised his voice to me but not a pushover by any means and he turned to me and yelled in my face, 'STOP YELLING AT ME!!'
I thought to myself, 'Holy **** - he's gonna hit me - and my next thought was, 'And I'm being so obnoxious - I probably deserve it.'
He didn't hit me though.
I've never been hit by a guy.
And I've only had the one physical 'altercation' with that girl. I just grabbed her wrist and made her drop my phone so I could use it to get her drunk self out of my car and off my hands.

I do however tell my son - 'NEVER, EVER, EVER hit a girl- even if she hits you first because you WILL pay dearly for it.'
He never would though - he's a very gentle and easy-going soul.

But if some guy ever hit my daughter - I'd knock the crap out of him myself.
If a girl hit her - would I advise her to stand there and take it?
Though it's probably not very politically correct to say,: no, honestly I wouldn't.
I mean, I wouldn't advise an all-out cat fight or anything but if someone was hitting her, I wouldn't have a problem with her hitting back and defending herself.

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

David wrote:
Did I tell u my Marilyn story about that ?

Yeah - when she wanted to drive drunk to the crack house with her kid in the car and you wouldn't let her go?

No, this was different. This was when this 'friend' of mine was interrogating me about why I liked my boyfriend and not him as a boyfriend and started to try to talk me into liking him in a different way, if you know what I mean.
I wasn't having it. He was/is 6'4 and an outdoorsman/camper/rafter/hiker person - I don't know how much he weighed - but I was/am 5'4 and 120 pounds.

I didn't even hesitate to show him my displeasure. Sometimes the element of surprise is a small woman's best friend.
Let's put it this way, he moved aside and let me leave the room. No harm done to either one of us.
By the way, we're still friends to this day. We talked about it and he understood where I was coming from. I didn't hurt him. I just let him know it was not okay for him to use his size to intimidate me or hold me somewhere I didn't want to be against my will.

Marilyn bopped me on the head, with her giant radio boombox.
Insignificant injury; I laffed it off.

On another (unrelated) occasion,
I am 1OO% certain that Marilyn tried to provoke me
to violence against n upon her, judging by her words,
her demeanor in body language and facial expression.
In her mind, I was supposed to cry out:
"O, u have offended me so severely
that now u will know the wrath of David"
and then (having abandoned reason and given myself
into emotionally chaotic malice) I was supposed to
stomp over to her and begin pounding upon her with my fists,
whereafter, she sues me for assault n battery.

Her plan was too transparent to be viable.
I laffed it off. That was a good defense,
her least desired, I 'm sure.

David wrote:

Wives have taken out their husbands that way.

aidan wrote:

Yeah - horrible. And husbands have taken out their wives that way.
And parents their children, and children their parents.
I find it very cowardly.

Yeah; I am safe from that.

aidan wrote:

In terms of women hitting men being more acceptable - I don't go for that.
I remember one time I was yelling at my husband about something and we lived in this cute little apartment with a tiny little kitchen and he was/is the most mild-mannered guy - actually almost never even raised his voice to me but not a pushover by any means and he turned to me and yelled in my face, 'STOP YELLING AT ME!!'
I thought to myself, 'Holy **** - he's gonna hit me - and my next thought was, 'And I'm being so obnoxious - I probably deserve it.'
He didn't hit me though.
I've never been hit by a guy.
And I've only had the one physical 'altercation' with that girl. I just grabbed her wrist and made her drop my phone so I could use it to get her drunk self out of my car and off my hands.

I do however tell my son - 'NEVER, EVER, EVER hit a girl- even if she hits you first because you WILL pay dearly for it.'
He never would though - he's a very gentle and easy-going soul.

But if some guy ever hit my daughter - I'd knock the crap out of him myself.
If a girl hit her - would I advise her to stand there and take it?
Though it's probably not very politically correct to say,: no, honestly I wouldn't.
I mean, I wouldn't advise an all-out cat fight or anything but if someone was hitting her,
I wouldn't have a problem with her hitting back and defending herself.

Of course.

When I was around 4,
my mother advised me not to hit any girls,
except in self-defense.

David

0 Replies

@failures art,

f.art,
by "genetic mark up" I meant that men are physically stronger than women.
Their muscle mass is greater due to testosterone and with a greater muscle
mass you have more force in pushing/hitting someone. Their bone structure
is larger and more robust (men rarely have osteoporosis). Women carry a
larger portion of body fat which aids in child bearing and nursing. Women
are genetically weaker as men (although there are exceptions here too).

Women throughout history have been viewed as the "weaker gender" and
therefore need more protection. Most men oblige to a code of ethics to not
physically harm either women or a weaker person in general.

I am certain that your college example would have been equally disapproved
upon if the guy in question would have hit a guy that was thinner and smallish in statue instead of the girl.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

by "genetic mark up" I meant that men are physically stronger than women.
Their muscle mass is greater due to testosterone and with a greater muscle
mass you have more force in pushing/hitting someone. Their bone structure
is larger and more robust (men rarely have osteoporosis). Women carry a
larger portion of body fat which aids in child bearing and nursing. Women
are genetically weaker as men (although there are exceptions here too).

So one human strikes another. Which matters more, the difference in strength or a gender difference. What if the physical advantage contradicts the assumption of the male being stronger?

CalamityJane wrote:

Women throughout history have been viewed as the "weaker gender" and
therefore need more protection.

Because of this, do you think that women can get away with more in social interaction due to social conventions like the one you mention?

CalamityJane wrote:

Most men oblige to a code of ethics to not physically harm either women or a weaker person in general.

I don't think the latter is observably true.

CalamityJane wrote:

I am certain that your college example would have been equally disapproved
upon if the guy in question would have hit a guy that was thinner and smallish in statue instead of the girl.

I don't agree. I think that the larger aggressor may have received more criticism, but I doubt the smaller person would have been treated as poorly after they fought back.

A
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1 Reply

I can't answer the question the way it is phrased because I am not hell bent on proportionality of response, I am much more interested in the effective use of power. As such, the use of force is more based upon the timing than the provocation. Generally I will use force just enough so that those whom I am dealing with know that I am willing to use force, and just enough so that my will prevails an acceptable amount of the time. One thing that I learned long ago is that once people believe that you will use force you will very rarely need to use force.

I used to be highly resistant to hitting women, but that was before so many of them became aggressive bitches. I would hit/push/slap a woman just as soon as I would a man now.

1 Reply

It was only a matter of time.

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1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I can't answer the question the way it is phrased because I am not hell bent on proportionality of response, I am much more interested in the effective use of power. As such, the use of force is more based upon the timing than the provocation. Generally I will use force just enough so that those whom I am dealing with know that I am willing to use force, and just enough so that my will prevails an acceptable amount of the time. One thing that I learned long ago is that once people believe that you will use force you will very rarely need to use force.

I used to be highly resistant to hitting women, but that was before so many of them became aggressive bitches.

I would hit/push/slap a woman just as soon as I would a man now.

That decision disgraces u.

David

1 Reply

@failures art,

You asked for an honest discussion of how different people feel on the issue and Hawk gave you his input. Are you dissing him for his honesty?

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@failures art,

Like djjd, I think it's just too dependent on individual circumstances to answer the questions as posed in your op.

IF I was ever moved to hit someone (I've come close but haven't), I don't think the gender of that person would matter much. Context, age, size, other things would matter a lot more.

Your story about college reminds me of a situation we're dealing with, though. There is a girl my daughter has been friends with -- they have a certain rough-and-tumble tomboyishness in common. But this friend pummels sozlet -- I've seen the bruises. Not in a mean way, she thinks she's playing. But it's way too rough. Sozlet's told her repeatedly but she just laughs and then does it some more later. Sozlet's had enough and won't hang out with her any more.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

That decision disgraces u.

In my opinion high functioning human relationships are both combative and cooperative, and thus combat skills are as important to perfect as are cooperation skills. I view those who either dont understand this or dont admit this as defective. I did not make human nature, I neither take responsibility for it nor feel shame for who I am. As a Zen I understand my calling to become in tune with my nature, and the universe, not to dispute it nor to deny it nor to try to change it.

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Is this what prompted the question?

Woman Beaten Into a Coma in Parking Lot Rage

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Oh man, that's a savage beating and was so uncalled for ....my heart goes out to her and her family.

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@failures art,

Quote:

So one human strikes another. Which matters more, the difference in strength or a gender difference. What if the physical advantage contradicts the assumption of the male being stronger?

If the story that Infrablue posted doesn't give you an answer, then I don't
know what you're questioning.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

Quote:
So one human strikes another. Which matters more, the difference in strength or a gender difference. What if the physical advantage contradicts the assumption of the male being stronger?

If the story that Infrablue posted doesn't give you an answer, then I don't
know what you're questioning.

It doesn't give an answer. This situation fits the general assumption about gender and strength. I'm asking about situations that contradict that, and if in these situations, gender still trumps other concerns.

Speaking to the story Infrablue posted. Is the great offense that this man hit a person who he was physically smaller, or because he hit a woman?

Out of Australia, this youtube clip has become popular in the last few days. It's a clip of a bully (the smaller child) picking on a larger kid, and then the larger kid finally snaps and throws the smaller child. Hard.

So in this case, it's two males. We see that the larger child was being attacked. If the same event had taken place and the small child had been female, would your reaction have been different? If you track backward to the video itself and read the comments, you'll see that largely the sympathy is with the larger child for being picked on and that the bully got just desserts. I won't say I agree, I only bring this forward to display what some of the public sentiment is on this. How would the narrative gone if he had thrown a girl in the same way?

In Washington on the METRO, this case only a few months old now where a man was beaten by a pair of children while reading a book waiting on a train. Now in this case all the children were smaller, one female. The man does not strike back.

I guess it's easy to determine that the man did the right thing by not striking them, because they were both smaller and one was a girl. But did this man have a right to defend himself? He was very scared, and cornered, and probably didn't know what to do. He's calling for help and no one steps in. At what point, if this had escalated even more, would this man have been excused for fighting back? Is fighting back only acceptable if nobody get's hurt? How can someone evaluate this in a violent situation?

When I was younger, I had this friend Hillary. She'd get really drunk when we'd go out to clubs and bars. She is a very attractive woman and so she'd get a lot of male attention. On multiple occasions she found herself in situations where she would slap a man or punch a man in a bar and her male friends had to step in and stop things from escalating further. In one case, she did this, and I stepped in. I told her we were leaving and when we got into the street them man snuck up behind me and punched me in the back of my head. It did not go any further. I was upset, but not wounded. I asked her why she did these things? I asked what if he had decided to hit her. She said he wouldn't because "she's a girl." I told her, but I did get hit because of this. She said she was sorry. At the base of this story is the real origin of this question. Did my friend Hillary act brashly because she assumed immunity from physical violence? Would she have done the same things if she was male? In other words, where did she get the belief that she could get away with more because she was a female, and what danger is there in taking on this kind of mentality? She escalated the situation in a way that I would never do, because I know that people will get violent with me if I did the same thing.

I'd NEVER hit someone and think that they'd strike me back. That's one reason why I don't hit people. It only creates worse situations.

A
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The headline of the article I posted misrepresents what has been reported about that incident. It wasn't a "beating" in the usual sense of the word. According to reports, the guy punched the woman once. The punch was forceful enough to knock her off of her feet backwards. She fell and hit her head against the ground. It was the blow to the head from hitting the ground that caused the trauma and coma.

Here's The Wall Street Journal's article about it:

Woman in Coma After Parking Fight

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The Stir
Posted by Julie Ryan Evans on March 7, 2011

Potty training is one of the most frustrating parenting experiences I've faced, but I still can't muster even a fraction of an ounce of empathy for Robin Greinke, 26, an Illinois woman, who along with her boyfriend beat her 3-year-old son to death because he wet his pants. Once they were finished, and he lay nearby dying, they ate a pizza and watched a movie.

Ms. Greinke and Steven Neil, 33, admitted that they took turns beating the boy for more than an hour after he had an accident February 8 while they were visiting Florida. "They were upset with him and they tossed him and spanked him and punched him," a homicide investigator told Central Florida News 13.

After enjoying themselves with the pizza and movie, Ms. Greinke finally called 911 around 5 a.m. to say her son, Noah Fake, was wheezing, and she couldn't sleep. She couldn't sleep. No one with even a hint of a conscience possibly could, but apparently she has none.

If it was a rash incident, it wouldn't make it any better, but at least there would be a tiny hint of understanding of how someone can snap. Potty training can be brutal, but this? This is truly one of the most horrific, unconscionable acts against a child by his own mother I've come across. The couple has been charged with aggravated child abuse, child neglect, and first-degree murder. Greinke was denied bail on Saturday and remains in jail and on suicide watch. I hope they watch her closely, because she doesn't deserve such an easy escape from her actions.

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