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Sun 28 Dec, 2003 06:12 am
In Life many serious issues are taken for granted.The more serious it is the lesser the importance it gets.Like there's no basic subject in education on Friendship,Love,team work etc.,We know that these are some of the vital issues in Life. The basic education deals with Sciences and Languages only.During my schooling we had a smack of Moral science that was allowed a natural death afterwards.There's not even a chapter on Life skills some of which I listed before.Psychology comes only in graduation level.
I've chosen the Parent issue now because, most of us are shaped by parents who neither knew what they're doing nor the longtime effects on the child's life.Worse is many of us don't even recognize it.I've a daughter who studies in College.Many times I felt I did not measure up as a Good Parent.In most of the issues sooner or latter I don't have an answer.I've collected a list of my own mistakes in handling my daughter in the name of Discipline I wish I did't do.This is apart from the regular difference of opinion on how deal my daughter in any given issue.Mind you that my daughter is generally Good and has not posed any serious problem so far.Yet, all I can say for sure is, that there are certain "Don't dos" in Parenting.Beyond this I can hardly say anything.I'm sure that most of us are like me only!
K.VEE....you are not alone. I have two young sons that I have made plenty of mistakes with. I have learned with my parenting that I have a list of "don't dos" that is a mile long.
I was raised up with STRICKED disciplinarany parents and vowed not to make the same mistakes that I believe my parents made. In return, I have two spoiled, rotten boys that I now wish I had taken a different route with. They are very well mannered and well behaved for everyone but me..lol But in my quest not to do as my parents, I think my mistakes out rank thiers. What a viscous circle...lol
But I can't change what I have started now, just cull some of it when the opportunity arises..and hope that the message gets through.
So......we are alot like you.......lol
But we are each individuals and parenting is different with each child, for they each have a different personality. What works for one, won't and don't work for another.
Thanks for sharing your experience makemeshiver.
All most all of us do the same mistake of going in the opposite direction.Infact I also decided to be reasonable,affectionate and will not ditch my children as I found my father never been so.I'm fairly successful in that.Yet,certain things I repeated and caught myself just at the last moment some times about using the very same words!
The point we simply do not know the answer and have the nagging doubt that we could be wrong whatever stand we take, in addition to the directly opposite stand taken by our partner.I think that as parents we should remember the fact that how helpless we felt against parents and elders when we were kids ourselves.This would be a starting point.
I think of a tag line of my mother's when faced with awesome responsibility: "Do your best, angels can do no more."
Also, remember, healthy children act up and act out at home because they trust parental love to put up with their shenanagans. Disturbed children act out in public because they can't trust their parents.
Hold your dominions.
Makemeshiver, each time your boys act up and you wish you'd taken a different approach in the past, go on and take it now. You can always tell them that since they're older, the old rules no longer apply. They'll adapt. The question girlfriend is whether YOU can.
Eoe.....thanks, I'm trying that approach....hoping that it will sink in.
K.Vee...you said it...
*I think that as parents we should remember the fact that how helpless we felt against parents and elders when we were kids ourselves.This would be a starting point.
THAT is one point that is so true....
And Noddy said... *Also, remember, healthy children act up and act out at home because they trust parental love to put up with their shenanagans. Disturbed children act out in public because they can't trust their parents.
LOL.....thank you, that makes me feel so much better. I have seen children that misbehaved in public and wondered WHY? Makes sense. Mine just misbehave at home. I have asked them time and time again..."why is it, you can behave here and there..etc, but you can't at home?" Of course, they look at me like I'm crazy....
But my husband has always said..."Would you rather them act like that elsewhere or with us only?" And I agree, I would rather put up with thier acts at home, then to be done that way in public.
Seems to me that kids act out in public, grocery stores especially, because they know their parents will be embarrassed and give them whatever they want. My mother wouldn't allow it. She'd spank in public or at home and we knew that. But nowadays...
eoe wrote:Seems to me that kids act out in public, grocery stores especially, because they know their parents will be embarrassed and give them whatever they want. My mother wouldn't allow it. She'd spank in public or at home and we knew that. But nowadays...
:)You've made a very valid point eoe.But, one need not spank.You can eliminate the bad behaviour simply by being unyielding.Further,spanking also teaches kids of voilence.It's also a fact that kids remember the spanking more than the reasons that drew the spanking!
I'm not so sure that there is a best means of parenting. We are all different, our circumstances differ, and even the closest twin children are different. Parenting skills and strategies vary, but usually they are applied with love and the best intentions. We decide what seems best to us on the basis of our own upbringing, and what we observe in the families of our social set. What works with one child, may fail dismally with another in what seems like similar circumstances.
The appropriate response to child rearing challenges also varies depending upon the age and maturity of the child. They need different sorts of parenting at different ages. The very young want and almost always need clear guidelines and rules to follow. What is right and wrong, good and bad, is important to the very young. This is the time that we are in the best position to mold character and values. If we screw-up, this is usually the time most of us do it.
Learning the subtilties of grey will be enough of a problem when they begin to interact more with the world outside the family. Hugs, kisses and constant attention lose their appeal, and much of their usefulness when the child enters puberty. That is the time when the opinion of peers are more important than parents. This is a worrisome time for parents. We fear that the children will fall with bad companions, or take up popular but dangerous habits. We are terribly frightened that they will make bad judgements, and we have difficulty in letting go of our control over every aspect of their lives. By the time our children reach this stage, we are generally well along in our careers. We are under stress to succeed and provide the material advantages we feel necessary for our families ... and for our own self esteem.
As young adults, the children are building lives that often seem at odds with what we expected and hoped. Instead of the college education we KNOW is so important, they choose to run off and see the world. They seem to have no appreciation for the time and effort it takes to build a stable and secure life. Damn, they still persist in taking risks that scare their parents to death. Though they insist on their independence, they never seem to tire of calling on Dad to underwrite their extravegant life style. They seem to choose the absolute wrong person to form a relationship with.
Against our wishes, they marry below our expectations. They have children of their own, and suddenly their partner is no longer quite so objectionable. They always spoil the children, or they are far too strict. They never visit or write enough, and the grandchildren really do need to have their grandparents handy to apply all those invaluable lessons they learned when they were twenty-somethings themselves.
The thing is that we will probably figure out the Unified Field Theory before we really understand how to best raise our children. I've known the off-spring of the "finest" and most conscientious people to grow to be drunken criminals. On the other hand, some of the best adjusted and materially successful spring from deprived and abusive childhoods.
I was too strict with my oldest son, and would do it differently if I could. However, he's made a fine life for himself in the Army and is a loving father to his children. He has managed to get a BA, and a graduate level degree with no help from his parents. His character is pure gold, and his sense of honor extreme. We are as proud of him and his accomplishments as we are regretful that of the discipline we enforced. We are convinced that the children are spoiled rotten, but they are also talented and academically in the top of their classes.
The youngest son got the benefit of the parenting skills we developed with the oldest. We still held him to very high standards, but he really did have less demands put upon him. We paid for his college, and it was a great investment. His first job didn't have much future or pay, but it fit his world-view reasonably well. Eventually, he decided that making a buck had its advantages. Now he is an analyst with a commercial mortgage firm and making money hand over fist. He and his long-time girl friend haven't bothered to get married, and it seems to his old parents like they may never have children.
Where, oh where did we go wrong, or did we?
As the mother of 2 girls who are both 'generally' well behaved, I find them sometimes making me want to pull out my hair- some of you'll remember my thread withthe dilema of punishing the 4 year old and how...well
My baby is the one who acts out the most. I do spank, but not as often as my mom did, and not as the first choice. That child has an attitude somethings that makes my head spin! I have read books and articles and I've tried the 'soft discipline' before, but sometimes that's not so well understood.
I am still faced with the questions of am i doing enough? am I a good mommy, and I being their friend when I need to be? Am I listening to them? I ask myself these questions at least once a week. My husband however, always reaffirms that I'm doing a good job. It's always good when you've got someone in your corner backing you up & reaffirming your parenting & you his (or hers).
Well done Asherman.You've really covered a lot of things about parenthood.I would agree with many of your points.I would like to point out the simple fact that in the flow of of points you,ve contradicted your view that there is no such a thing as Good or Bad Parental practise. down the line.
Asherman wrote:I'm not so sure that there is a best means of parenting. We are all different, our circumstances differ, and even the closest twin children are different. Parenting skills and strategies vary, but usually they are applied with love and the best intentions. We decide what seems best to us on the basis of our own upbringing, and what we observe in the families of our social set. What works with one child, may fail dismally with another in what seems like similar circumstances.
The appropriate response to child rearing challenges also varies depending upon the age and maturity of the child. They need different sorts of parenting at different ages. The very young want and almost always need clear guidelines and rules to follow. What is right and wrong, good and bad, is important to the very young. This is the time that we are in the best position to mold character and values. If we screw-up, this is usually the time most of us do it.
Learning the subtilties of grey will be enough of a problem when they begin to interact more with the world outside the family. Hugs, kisses and constant attention lose their appeal, and much of their usefulness when the child enters puberty. That is the time when the opinion of peers are more important than parents. This is a worrisome time for parents. We fear that the children will fall with bad companions, or take up popular but dangerous habits. We are terribly frightened that they will make bad judgements, and we have difficulty in letting go of our control over every aspect of their lives. By the time our children reach this stage, we are generally well along in our careers. We are under stress to succeed and provide the material advantages we feel necessary for our families ... and for our own self esteem.
As young adults, the children are building lives that often seem at odds with what we expected and hoped. Instead of the college education we KNOW is so important, they choose to run off and see the world. They seem to have no appreciation for the time and effort it takes to build a stable and secure life. Damn, they still persist in taking risks that scare their parents to death. Though they insist on their independence, they never seem to tire of calling on Dad to underwrite their extravegant life style. They seem to choose the absolute wrong person to form a relationship with.
Against our wishes, they marry below our expectations. They have children of their own, and suddenly their partner is no longer quite so objectionable. They always spoil the children, or they are far too strict. They never visit or write enough, and the grandchildren really do need to have their grandparents handy to apply all those invaluable lessons they learned when they were twenty-somethings themselves.
The thing is that we will probably figure out the Unified Field Theory before we really understand how to best raise our children. I've known the off-spring of the "finest" and most conscientious people to grow to be drunken criminals. On the other hand, some of the best adjusted and materially successful spring from deprived and abusive childhoods.
I was too strict with my oldest son, and would do it differently if I could. However, he's made a fine life for himself in the Army and is a loving father to his children. He has managed to get a BA, and a graduate level degree with no help from his parents. His character is pure gold, and his sense of honor extreme. We are as proud of him and his accomplishments as we are regretful that of the discipline we enforced. We are convinced that the children are spoiled rotten, but they are also talented and academically in the top of their classes.
The youngest son got the benefit of the parenting skills we developed with the oldest. We still held him to very high standards, but he really did have less demands put upon him. We paid for his college, and it was a great investment. His first job didn't have much future or pay, but it fit his world-view reasonably well. Eventually, he decided that making a buck had its advantages. Now he is an analyst with a commercial mortgage firm and making money hand over fist. He and his long-time girl friend haven't bothered to get married, and it seems to his old parents like they may never have children.
Where, oh where did we go wrong, or did we?
Your writeup clearly says that you regret the excessively strict ways you adopted for your first son.Why, if there's no such a thing as right parenting methods?
I tell you that you're not felling different than anybody else on this issue.
The fact that different parenting styles produce the same desirable/bad result shows that the results came in despite the parenting style employed! My guess is that What you tell about your first son is not complete.You've probably noticed certain issues in your son that disturbs you and you suspect that them to be due to your strict parenting.Only you can tell about it.
My contention is that though we need to tailor the parenting with reference to age,gender,mental make up and situation, we need to have a basic knowledge about children,their needs and fears.We need to shed the long established myths about them.For example it is always assumed that children's life is carefree and easy going.The truth is far from it.
Secondly,we always assume ourselves as reasonable and controlled.Many times we are as bad as our parents were.We're emotional when we face problems.That's what we have seen in our parents.That's why I say we all need basic ideas to start with.
Shannon is so fixed on choosing "right" over "wrong" that the greyness of things escapes him. He either insists that a thing is "right" or "wrong", when those he interacts with may not agree. That makes him a difficult man to work with in the Shadow World.
Shannon grew up to be an extremely secretive man and a natural for Intelligence. On the other hand getting him to say anything about his thoughts is like pulling teeth. It drives his wife crazy, probably because she is so much like he is. He tends to be remote except with the children, and we worry that his life may not be so rich as it should be.
What I said was that there is no best way to raise children. However there are a number of ways that are more likely to produce less than optimum results. Beatings and abuse aren't good ways to raise children, though they may go on to "success". The trauma of deprived childhoods doesn't necessarily go away. The tortured child may build a wonderful life as an adult, but still carry within them terrible scars.
As a child I was beaten and abused by a stepfather. Kept away from the loving family that I idolized, I grew up trying to always be perfect so as to avoid beatings. Of course, it never worked. I felt unloved as a child, and have a hard time showing affection as an old man. I'm not terribly comfortable with relationships, but I've worked very hard over the years to at least counterfit comfort and ease. It isn't a great way to live, and I hate to see the signs of my own problems in my son, though he was never abused nor beaten at all. Did I somehow scar the lad in my zeal to develop attributes that would give him a better life than my own? Perhaps not, but a parent wonders and would raise the child differently if given the chance.
By the time the second child was being raised we were more mature and thoughtful about how one goes about child rearing. With that one we perhaps were a little to lenient. He's a natural diplomat and universally liked. On the other hand, he's approaching forty and still hasn't started a family. We worry that by the time he and Michele get around to children they will be recieving social security checks and we'll be moldering.
People should do their best, and let it go. No sense in beating yourself up over how children turn out if you loved them and did your best. Of course, that's facile advise that I can't follow myself.
Did that clarify it for you?
Dear Asherman You've definitely said it nicely.People generally do not come out with truth.But,you've definitely come up easily with it.I admire your courage.
I could understand your painful childhood as I myself had similar experiences as a kid.I fully agree with you that we should do the best possible and leave it as it is.It's a doomed effort in challenging our father
(usually unconsciously)mentally and decide "I'll show myself as a perfect Parent".
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