hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 02:13 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Certainly a battle victory evening to the GOP, but net loss that otherwise would have never come about without the recall. I'm not surprised at your summary, Hawk. Then again, in your mind, I'm sure recall votes happen all the time, and those two Republicans were planning on leaving tonight anyways...

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I am with the WJS that this was a poor use of the recall option. I Further think that a lot of time, energy and money was spent for very little productive purpose. Two people are two people amongst almost 6 million, their change of plans are not consequential.
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 02:41 am
@hawkeye10,
Why exactly was it a bad use of the recall option? The people that were previously represented by the two republicans felt strongly enough to remove them. Isn't that exactly the purpose of having this ability? For those representatives that weren't on the ballot last night, don't you think they now have a pretty clear understanding that the people aren't afraid to remove them?

What exactly would have been the right amount of time and energy spent, and what would be productive to you? I think for those who actually put in time and energy (noteworthy: That's not you), would probably feel otherwise.

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Gargamel
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 08:38 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Partying and munching on pizza when they were supposed to be at work did not speak for the majority in spite of loud claims from multiple A2K'ers to the contrary.


Those whippersnappers with their pizza and rock n' roll! Are you a hundred years old? Have you been a hundred your entire life? You seem so old, warped, and curmudgeonly. Not just with respect to politics, but pretty much everything. Though you do seem to express a youthful zeal for pedophilia.

Did you never go to college? You seem to have no sense about what it means to be young. And what nerve it takes to refuse to do what you're told for your entire life! To not just take it when you governor is cutting your benefits clearly for political advantage, not for the budget--see the redistricting measure Walker just passed.

"Supposed to be at work." **** off. If we properly supported teachers to begin with, you might not be a massive idiot.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:49 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Certainly a battle victory evening to the GOP, but net loss that otherwise would have never come about without the recall. I'm not surprised at your summary, Hawk. Then again, in your mind, I'm sure recall votes happen all the time, and those two Republicans were planning on leaving tonight anyways...

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No. It was a minor setback for the Republicans in the State Senate. However they have prevailed in their effort to curtail the power of state employee unions at a time when the finances of the state were in serious peril. The heavily financed effort by organized labor to demonstrate its control over the Democrat party, and ultimately the politics of the state, has failed completely in attaining its goals - both in the courts and now in the recall elections. The people of Winsconsin have spoken.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:28 am
@failures art,
Recalls are the remedy for massive failures of duty, disagreements on policy get handled at the pre arranged election times.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:43 am
@Gargamel,
While the protesters tendedn to be young because of the left leaning UW campus on site this was not a youth movement. For instance my 63 yo aunt was there, reliving her glory days when my uncle was a hard charging anti war (Vietnam) radical at UW. But now that you mention it we do see here that the youth can get pissed and demand change but yet again the interests of youth have a very difficult time at the ballot box. This has extensive ramifications as we take the up coming massive budget cuts....we have every reason to fear that the babyboomers will yet again roll over all of the other generations, they will get their retirement and medical benefits come hell or high water, and they don't care who gets hurt in the process.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:49 am
@Gargamel,
Gargamel wrote:

[Did you never go to college? You seem to have no sense about what it means to be young. And what nerve it takes to refuse to do what you're told for your entire life! To not just take it when you governor is cutting your benefits clearly for political advantage, not for the budget--see the redistricting measure Walker just passed.


There was very little that was young about the potbellied placeholders seeking legslated job protection from accountabiulity, productivity or the lack of real achievement who, along with their also potbellied, middle aged union minders, trashed the Wisconsin state capitol several months ago.

They weren't seeking chalenge, achievement or adventure. Quite the opposite. They wanted guarantees of job protection no matter how little they did. They were the antithersis of youth.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 12:04 pm
@georgeob1,
Their are unabashed liars and then there is georgeob1.

I was already pointed out to you goerge that no one "trashed the Wisconsin state capitol several months ago." It was a lie when it was told then. It's still a lie when you repeat it now.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 12:22 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Capitol protesters out, but high clean-up costs remain
March 3rd, 2011

Share141 Print This Post By Kevin Lee Wisconsin Reporter

MADISON — The protesters have left the Wisconsin Capitol for now, but Senate Democrats face arrest if the lawmakers fail to return to the chamber.

Senate Republicans on Thursday issued a resolution that authorizes the Senate sergeant-at arms to arrest their Democratic colleagues should the absent lawmakers be found in the state. The 19 Democrats could be arrested for contempt of Senate rules that prohibit them from being absent for an "entire day without first obtaining a leave of absence," according to the resolution.


State Sen. Jon Erpenbach, D-Middleton, said in a statement his caucus has no immediate plans to return to the Capitol.

Democrats fled the state last month rather than vote of Gov. Scott Walker's budget repair bill aims to ease a $136.7 million budget shortfall over the next few months. The plan eliminating most public union collective bargaining agreements.

The proposal remains stalled in the Senate because the 19 Republicans need at least one Democrat present to reach the 20-member quorum needed for a vote on financial matters.

At one point, more than 75,000 people crowded in and around the Capitol to protest Walker's plan.

The departure of three dozen demonstrators — mostly people in their late teens and early 20s, though a few older protesters were present Thursday — came after a Wisconsin judge ruled earlier in the night that authorities could apprehend those who stayed in the Capitol past the normal closing time of 6 p.m.

Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs called for a "return to normalcy" while discussing matters with protest organizers.

Dane County Circuit Judge John Albert ruled on the question of Capitol access after three days of testimony that pitted union organizers against the governor.

Last weekend, the Walker administration began the process of moving protesters out of the Capitol while limiting access to the East Wing entrance. The governor and lawmakers indicated growing concerns for safety and cleanliness of the facility.

Walker indicated in a news conference Thursday that there were attempts by protesters to breach one of the entrances locked down by authorities.

"That's a major concern if local authorities don't feel they can assure the public of their safety if they can't assure the safety of their own," he said.

Earlier this week, Capitol Police and local authorities instituted a "one-in, one-out" policy in the East Wing entrance while all other wings were closed to the public. The total number of outside visitors was capped by law enforcement, but a total number could not be determined.

Peggy Lautenschlager, an attorney representing the unions that brought the case against the governor, said the Capitol would re-open without restriction during normal hours when it opens for business next week. She said she was "relieved" that the judicial process was over.

As of now, local authorities will allow posters and banners to remain on display in the Capitol rotunda, and the Wisconsin Historical Society has shown an interest in collecting some of the various paraphernalia.

Protesters began setting up sleeping bags and air mattresses inside the Capitol after Walker announced his budget adjustment proposal in early February.

The Wisconsin Department of Administration estimates it could cost the state $8 million to restore the Capitol to its pre-protest condition, Wisconsin media are reporting. The estimate includes $500,000 to remove adhesive from taped posters, $1 million to repair the structure's exterior and $6.5 million for rebuffing the interior marble.

« School districts expected to try different maneuvers to cut health care costsWisconsin Executive Budget Release Week In Review


http://www.wisconsinreporter.com/capitol-protesters-out-but-high-clean-up-costs-remain
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:31 pm
@georgeob1,
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/08/mike-huebsch/wisconsin-officials-claim-cleaning-state-capitol-w/

Not only is the story a lie.. it's a "pants on fire" kind of lie.

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-pantsonfire.gif
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:56 pm
@parados,
RIIGHTTT.....you sure love to shovel the BULLSHIT dont ya Parados....

Quote:
POSTED: Friday, May 13, 2011 --- 11:00 a.m.

Today the Wisconsin Department of Administration held a press conference to answer long-standing questions about the cost of cleaning up the State Capitol Building after weeks of huge protests in February and March.

This story received extra attention in March, when the DOA was involved in a court hearing over the right of protesters to stay in the Capitol beyond normal operating hours. Hundreds of protesters camped out inside and outside the building, and even set up mini-communities. In court hearings, the DOA suggested the protesters may be causing significant damage to the building and grounds, and also cited security concerns. DOA Secretary Mike Huebsch said in that hearing that one estimate suggested damage estimates could reach as high as $7.5 million, a figure that was called into question by many observers.


MADISON – The Wisconsin Department of Administration today released preliminary estimates for law enforcement, clean up and repair costs associated with sustained demonstrations at the State Capitol in February and March. In total, the preliminary total of law enforcement and repair costs is $8,089,215 for the time period of February 14, 2011 through March 13, 2011.

Law enforcement services associated with the demonstrations at the Capitol total approximately $7,819,665. This figure is preliminary, as the Department has not received all invoices from local law enforcement agencies. Nor has the Department audited or paid any invoices.

Law enforcement during the demonstrations was provided by the Capitol Police, Wisconsin State Patrol, University of Wisconsin Police Department, the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Justice, and local law enforcement agencies.

Capitol Police, $458,406: This figure represents only staffing costs such as overtime and staffing beyond that which would be incurred on a typical day by the Capitol Police. On a typical day, Capitol Police has approximately 14 staff on duty at the Capitol.

Local Law Enforcement, $3,904,919: The Department signed a memorandum of understanding with 202 of law enforcement agencies from across the state to provide additional staffing at the Capitol. The MOU calls for the Department to reimburse local law enforcement for wages (including overtime and benefits), mileage, lodging, damage to equipment or clothing, and medical expenses arising while providing assistance. Thirty-two law enforcement agencies who have signed MOUs have not submitted reimbursement claims yet. This figure represents expenses submitted by these agencies.

Other State Agencies, $3,034,088: The Wisconsin State Patrol, University of Wisconsin Police Department, the Department of Natural Resources, and the Department of Justice provided personnel at the Capitol to assist with law enforcement needs. The Department asked these agencies to submit to it only staffing costs such as overtime and staffing beyond that which would have been incurred on a typical day. This figure represents expenses reported by these agencies.

Additional Supplies and Services, $422,252: Some miscellaneous costs were incurred by the Capitol Police during the demonstrations that will be paid by the Department. Capitol Police provided food to county and municipal law enforcement officers and support staff who were there to provide security and unable to leave their posts for extended periods of time. Other examples of miscellaneous products and services include: ear buds for the officers’ radios because there was too much noise in the building to use the speaker/handset attached to their uniform, on-site health checks for officers who worked long periods of time, and security for the parking lots where the municipal police parked their vehicles which contained expensive communications equipment and possibly weapons.

CAPITOL CONDITION ASSESSMENT:
The preliminary estimate for repairs to the Capitol and Capitol grounds is $269,550.

In March, the Department hired Charles Quagliana, a historical architect who participated in the Capitol renovation completed in 2004, to assess the condition of the Capitol and recommend remedies. Mr. Quagliana surveyed the stone surfaces in the public areas of the Capitol which include Kasota and Mankato stone, granite, syenite and marble. He examined the surfaces for tape, tape residue, magic marker and other foreign marks, as well as for new nicks and chips in the stone. Mr. Quagliana did not examine the stone or other items like furniture or carpeting in individual offices or legislative chambers as demonstrations did not generally occur in those areas.

In his report, Mr. Quagliana notes, “Essentially, the building experienced 3-5 years of wear within a two week period of late February and early March, 2011.”

Mr. Quagliana recommends using a custom poultice to remove marker and other foreign stains from the stone. He expects this will take between 80-100 hours. Mr. Quagliana also recommends using a skilled mason with expertise in specific stone materials to repair nicks and chips. He expects this will take about 200-250 hours. Finally, Mr. Quagliana recommends using semi-skilled workers to clean the marble. He expects this work to take about 3,500-4,000 hours.

In addition, the preliminary total includes ongoing repair costs related to the demonstrations for items such as broken doors and window frames, as well as overtime costs for additional custodial work.
The preliminary estimate does not include costs for some additional cleaning identified in the report because it predates the demonstrations. The estimate also does not include costs associated with the noted wear on the building that may require future repairs. For instance, during the demonstrations, the building’s HVAC system ran nearly non-stop, a volume it was not designed for, shortening its useful life.

Interior Repair, $161,050: Based on Mr. Quagliana’s recommendations, repair work to the stone in the Capitol is expected to cost approximately $111, 750. Estimated hourly wages for a custom poultice, skilled mason, and semi-skilled workers to do the work are about $50, $120, and $21.40, respectively.
In addition, to date, about $49,300 has been expended for ongoing repairs ($3,100), additional custodial services ($30,500), professional photography to prepare for the assessment ($1,900), and Mr. Quagliana’s assessment ($13,800).

Exterior Repair, $108,500: Repairs will be made to the lawn and a limited number of shrubs and trees will need to be replaced. A planned project to upgrade the sprinkler system on the lawn is not included in this cost estimate. All repair work will be bid out. The bulk of the work will take place in August or later so as not to disrupt planned events on the Capitol Square this summer

http://www.nbc15.com/news/headlines/State_Says_Cost_of_Protests_is_More_Than_Eight_Million_Dollars_121784359.html
failures art
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 03:19 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

failures art wrote:

Certainly a battle victory evening to the GOP, but net loss that otherwise would have never come about without the recall. I'm not surprised at your summary, Hawk. Then again, in your mind, I'm sure recall votes happen all the time, and those two Republicans were planning on leaving tonight anyways...

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No. It was a minor setback for the Republicans in the State Senate. However they have prevailed in their effort to curtail the power of state employee unions at a time when the finances of the state were in serious peril. The heavily financed effort by organized labor to demonstrate its control over the Democrat party, and ultimately the politics of the state, has failed completely in attaining its goals - both in the courts and now in the recall elections. The people of Winsconsin have spoken.

The budget of the State that was "in peril" was not due to the unions. Why address the non-problem? Probably because this measure was never about fixing a budget. It's just union-busting and flimsy justification.

A government that understands the people hold the authority to remove them is good right? I've heard plenty of conservatives tote this line around, do you feel the same?

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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 04:53 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

The budget of the State that was "in peril" was not due to the unions. Why address the non-problem? Probably because this measure was never about fixing a budget. It's just union-busting and flimsy justification.

A government that understands the people hold the authority to remove them is good right? I've heard plenty of conservatives tote this line around, do you feel the same?

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I think there are those in Wisconsin who would disagree with you about the issues threatening the financial stability of the state government and those of many local communities, resulting from unsustainable grants to unionized state employees in previous "collective bargaining" rounds. The Federal government does not allow collective bargaining with Federal employee unions, holding those decisions as non delegable functions of elected government . The Wisconsin legislation merely established a similar regime for the state employee unions. It wasn't "union busting" at all.

Labor unions are merely in the habit of characterizing any effort to limit their legally enforced union monopoly on employment; forced membership and prededuction of dues from employees (whether they want to pay or join or not); as "union busting". Its a wonderful racket : You get a government enforced monopoly on employment. You don't even have to write invoices or shake down your victims for your money - it is prededucted from their pay and deposited in your account every payday. You don't have to account to anyone for how you spend the money, and you have ample funds with which to bribe or threaten politicians so you can expand your take whenever needed.

However, there was a truly poetic element in the Wisconsin law though. If I recall correctly, after a year or so the state will stop collecting dues for the unions, leaving them with the chore of shaking down their members directly. Soon afterward the unions will have to recertify their status by a majority vote of their members. It isn't union busting per se, however, it is demonstrably true that whenever employees are given the free choice they abandon unions by a large majority. However, since the cynical rationalization of union thugs is that the workers they organize are too dumb to know what is good for them, it is perhaps understandable that they would regard free choice as the equivalent of "union busting".
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 05:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
Lol. Do you even read the stuff you post?

That combines clean up and police work. From your own article: "The preliminary estimate for repairs to the Capitol and Capitol grounds is $269,550."

Nowhere near the millions claimed by GeorgeOb(tuse).
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 05:38 pm
@DrewDad,
I reported the preliminary findings of the state government as reported by a Madison newspaper. I don't claim to know the truth. However, even a $270,000 cleanup bill for a "peaceful" public demonstration by "model workers" who have not yet come forward to offer to pay for any of the damage they caused ... is nothing to brag about.

The one constant in all this is the shrill indignation and continuing denial and whining of those whose milking of the public treasury in Wisconsin is now under serious threat as a result of the legal processes of the elected officials of that state, subsequently reaffirmed by state courts and in recall elections by the voters in the state. Grace in defeat is something they appear unable to do.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 08:04 pm
@georgeob1,
Of course there are some in WI "who would disagree" with me. There are some that disagree with you. What about it, george? What do the budget's numbers say? Show me directly how this measure actually addressed what caused the budget problems. I've watched parados and cyclo walk you through this for months. I'm not impressed with your grasp of the situation.

Tell me george, if the unions don't disolve as you prophetize, what's that going to mean from you? You ready to admit that people are in these unions because they want them? I have a different prediction: Come time for the unions to collect their dues etc, they will remain, and you will summarize their continued existence as more bullying etc etc etc. At no point are you prepared to accept these unions are desired.

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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 08:44 pm
@failures art,
You asserted that the legislation in Wisconsin was "just Union busting" and not about the budget. Unfortunately, that is not what the bill's proponents argued. Those who diagreed with you included, for example, a majority of the legislators in the state. It was they, in concert with the governor, who designed and established this remedy for the state budget issue. In addition the governor stated that the union restraint was also necessary to preclude additional crises in counties and municipalities in the state also subject to the same collective bargaining agreements. That the state's union negotiated health care and pension cost forecasts showed sharp escalation well beyond state financial forecasts is a readily verifiable fact.

Any dollar expenditure in the state's budget can be considered as a contributor to the state budget problem, just as any dollar of savings from it can be considered as a part of the solution. This measure enabled the state to reduce health care and pension costs thereby contributing to the solution to the budget issue. It is likely that other solutions could also have been found involving other expenditures. However, this is the one the people of Wisconsin chose based on the actions of their elected representatives. No one has "walked me through" anything. It appears to me that you are trying to pose a meaningless question and have tripped over your own lack of thought.

I did not make any prophecy. I merely indicated that, given a choice in the matter, both public sector and private sector employees almost always choose not to join unions. There are 21 states in the country with right to work laws that preclude compulsory union membership. Unions can organize the workforces in companies in those states and get compulsory recognition by the employers. The workers there are free to join the union if they wish, but no one can be compelled to do so either as a condition of employment or afterwards. Union membership is virtually nil in those states. I believe that is pretty good evidence in support of my point. Do you have any contradictory evidence you would like to offer? Or are you just making noise?

If a few years from now the legislation is still in place amd the majority of currently unionized Wisconsin state employees are still dues paying union members I will be very surprised, and political analysts all over the country will be investigating the unusual outcome. What I might opine about it then will depend greatly on the information then available.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2011 05:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I almost can't believe some of you guys haven't been able to figure this one out for yourselves by now. But then again...

One more time, briefly:

When GM managers and UAW leaders sit down at a table to negotiate, everybody's interests are represented one way or another. When low level govt workers or teachers sit down to negotiate with higher level govt workers or ed dept wonks and bureaucrats, the interests of the people are not represented at all. The ONLY way the ordinary people in a place like Wisconsin can have any voice in such a thing is to vote for Republicans like Scott Walker and hope those guys are conservative and Republican enough to try to do something.

That's before you even get to the question of public servants demanding more in the way of wages and benefits than any of the people paying their salaries via taxes have of course.

Scott Walker is one of the first little handful of pubbie pols to realize that he is in fact in a war and behave accordingly. Hopefully the trickle will shortly turn into a tidal wave.



0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2011 06:47 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I reported the preliminary findings of the state government as reported by a Madison newspaper. I don't claim to know the truth.
You continue to repeat the "preliminary" findings even after being told the truth.

This was the estimate for clean up george that your claim was based on.
It includes an estimate of $500,000 to do an estimate and an estimate of $7 million to do the work.
http://media.jsonline.com/images/capitol31.jpg
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/118951264.html

You will notice it wasn't done by unions.... Good thing the unions pointed out it was too expensive.
If this is the type of work you like done, then no wonder you want to get rid of unions.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2011 06:53 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
You asserted that the legislation in Wisconsin was "just Union busting" and not about the budget. Unfortunately, that is not what the bill's proponents argued.

If the bill was about the budget then under Wisconsin law it required 2/3 of the Senate to be present for the vote. They stripped OUT the budget parts to pass it without the Democrats so your argument is not supported legally.

Governor Walker testified to the US Congress that the bill had no effect on the budget.
 

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