Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 12:41 pm
The thing I love about the Left is even during a time of crisis we keep our sense of humor. The Best Signs from the protest:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-best-protest-signs-at-the-wisconsin-capitol
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 12:49 pm
@Green Witch,
Aw, I miss Madison...
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 12:52 pm
@Green Witch,
Very nice thanks. Wink
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:04 pm
http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z458/Kos201/Madison/CapitolGrounds-660.jpg

70K plus out protesting on Friday night.

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z458/Kos201/Madison/Fireman-march.jpg

Firemans' unions marching in solidarity even though they were exempt from this deal. Love it.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
What the right seems to miss are these very basic issues:
a) wages and benefits for the middle class and poor have remained stagnant as the rich became richer
b) the right wants to eliminate unions because they wish to earn more money and benefits - all while the middle class losses their jobs and homes
c) the right advocates for more tax cuts for the wealthy even when the wealthy says they're willing to pay more in taxes to reduce the national debt
d) the right claims taxing the wealthy is transferring their wealth to the poor - all while the very rich continues to give much of their wealth for the poor and needy
e) the right's claim that they want less government intrusion into our lives are the same people who wants to control women's and gay's rights
f) the right (conservatives) is bankrupt! they make no sense in their issues and goals; they prefer to support wars over the American people
g) all those conservatives on these boards must be independently wealthy; they don't need social security, Medicare, or ObamaCare

None have lost buying power, lost jobs, lost homes, and are content with the growing national debt. They all have secure jobs or have enough wealth for their retirement.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Your statements on this matter are somewhat colored by the fact that you are one of A2K's most notorious union-haters. You bash them reflexively and seem to consider them to be one step up from scum. Hard to think that what we are looking at here is a measured view of the situation - which is why I ask you to provide evidence to back up your argument.

Cycloptichorn


I bash unions only thoughtfully and only after years of experience dealing with them. In nature intelligent & successful parasites don't kill their hosts. Unions are greedy, stupid parasites. They have killed nearly every U.S. industry in which they have achieved a dominant position. Now they are killing local government, public education and public finances.

Their only saving virtue is that they frequently overplay their hand. Hopefully this is happening now.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:30 pm
@plainoldme,
Is there a consensus on the precise definition of capitalism, or how the term should be used as an analytical category? If not, I would use it like this {Democracy is a philosophical system, built upon the idea of shared capitalist rights.
What do you think of this type of thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwnrm_MXLHU&feature=channel


Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:02 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Your statements on this matter are somewhat colored by the fact that you are one of A2K's most notorious union-haters. You bash them reflexively and seem to consider them to be one step up from scum. Hard to think that what we are looking at here is a measured view of the situation - which is why I ask you to provide evidence to back up your argument.

Cycloptichorn


I bash unions only thoughtfully and only after years of experience dealing with them. In nature intelligent & successful parasites don't kill their hosts. Unions are greedy, stupid parasites. They have killed nearly every U.S. industry in which they have achieved a dominant position. Now they are killing local government, public education and public finances.


Far more accurate to say that Greed killed these industries, both on the parts of management and on union leaders. You seem to think that management is helpless in the face of union demands. But they are not.

Quote:
Their only saving virtue is that they frequently overplay their hand. Hopefully this is happening now.


Sometimes, uniting your opponents through the passage of unpopular legislation comes back to haunt you. Just ask the Dems about that!

Quote:
*** The physics of American politics: The situation in Wisconsin is also another reminder that Newton's third law of motion -- for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction -- applies to American politics. When George W. Bush, after winning re-election, tried to partially privatize Social Security in early 2005, he woke up a despondent Democratic base. When Barack Obama, at the height of his popularity, decided to take on health care, the Tea Party and an energized GOP rose to combat it. And now the physics of politics is playing out in Wisconsin, where Democrats and organized labor are resisting new Gov. Scott Walker's (R) effort to strip state workers of their collective bargaining rights. The question to ponder in Wisconsin -- as well as in the battlegrounds of Ohio and Florida, or in the Capitol Hill fight over Planned Parenthood -- is whether these combative efforts end up energizing Democrats as we head into 2012. After all, there is probably not a more unifying force than being out of power.


http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/18/6079091-first-thoughts-upside-down

I would bet at this point that Walker wins concessions from the Unions in terms of pension reductions and contributions to health care plans, but fails in his attempt to legislate them out of existence.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
True; nobody goes to the negotiating table with guns.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:34 pm
Quote:
Stand Up For Ohio
Join thousands this Tuesday at 1PM at the Statehouse to stop Kasich's assault on working families and show your opposition to Senate Bill 5. Show your support of nurses, firefighters, teachers and other public service workers who keep our communities strong and safe.


I might do this. Need to do a bit more research first.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I would bet at this point that Walker wins concessions from the Unions in terms of pension reductions and contributions to health care plans, but fails in his attempt to legislate them out of existence.

Cycloptichorn


A reasonable bet on an unknowable future event. At least you are no longer fostering the illusion that you, or anyone, can "prove" these things, or that you are offering or have offered "proof" of anything related to this discussion.

I'll happily take the opposite bet. I believe the Wisconsin Republicans will succeed in passing legislation further limiting the negotiating rights of public sector labor unions at the local & state government levels in Wisconsin.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Far more accurate to say that Greed killed these industries, both on the parts of management and on union leaders. You seem to think that management is helpless in the face of union demands. But they are not.

Cycloptichorn


Possibly. However greed is a universal fact of human nature, and the failure of such industries is very strongly correlated with their infestation with labor unions. Are we to believe that the non union (or offshore sited) industries in this country are led by non greedy managers and staffed by non greedy workers?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 03:27 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Far more accurate to say that Greed killed these industries, both on the parts of management and on union leaders. You seem to think that management is helpless in the face of union demands. But they are not.

Cycloptichorn


Possibly. However greed is a universal fact of human nature, and the failure of such industries is very strongly correlated with their infestation with labor unions. Are we to believe that the non union (or offshore sited) industries in this country are led by non greedy managers and staffed by non greedy workers?


It's less about union vs. non-union and more about the conscious choices that management and labor make.

As American workers typically enjoy higher standards within their workplace and require higher pay to maintain a medium standard of living in this country than those in 3rd-world countries do, the cost of production of goods in these industries - union or not - is necessarily higher. This means that similar goods are produced for less profit than industries that decide to outsource in most cases.

What other way to describe management who affirmatively decides to make things here in America, then less interested in profit than those who do not? How would you characterize these groups?

The model holds true amongst other industries as well. Companies that pay their workers more money and have better benefits as compared to other typical companies could very rightly described as 'less greedy.' These companies, if you listen to investment advisers and analysts, never make as much in profits as those who are 'more competitive' with their benefit and pay structure.

Let's look at an example of that: Sam's Club, Walmart's bulk outlet - vs. Costco. Costco pays its' employees far more than Sam's and offers health insurance as well, whereas Walmart typically does not. So it's inherently going to be less profitable than Sam's on the same volume of sales. However, Costco has grown tremendously and is a very successful company at this point.

This is in large part because of their investment in their workforce and conscious decision to accept lower profit margins than their competitors. Because of this they will also get less investors - my (old) financial adviser said 'they're a dog, stay away from them.'

Can Costco be described as 'less greedy' than companies who do everything possible to maximize profit? I think that would be an accurate way to describe it. Their success in the face of large, well-financed competition who has a 'more competitive' business structure shows, I believe, that it is completely possible to run businesses in today's America while respecting the concept that all workers matter, and that everyone's contribution is worth a both a living wage and respect.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 03:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Let's look at an example of that: Sam's Club, Walmart's bulk outlet - vs. Costco. Costco pays its' employees far more than Sam's and offers health insurance as well, whereas Walmart typically does not. So it's inherently going to be less profitable than Sam's on the same volume of sales. However, Costco has grown tremendously and is a very successful company at this point.

This is in large part because of their investment in their workforce and conscious decision to accept lower profit margins than their competitors. Because of this they will also get less investors - my (old) financial adviser said 'they're a dog, stay away from them.'

Can Costco be described as 'less greedy' than companies who do everything possible to maximize profit? I think that would be an accurate way to describe it. Their success in the face of large, well-financed competition who has a 'more competitive' business structure shows, I believe, that it is completely possible to run businesses in today's America while respecting the concept that all workers matter, and that everyone's contribution is worth a both a living wage and respect.

Cycloptichorn


I don't know much about either company, except that both have grown rapidly (WALMART more than COSTCO) and both have been financially successful. Are either of these companies inhabited by labor unions ? (I think not.)

If you are attempting to suggest that WALMART is doomed, I think you have some explaining to do.

I'll agree that worker morale and committment is a critical factor to success and that fair compensation is a vital component of that. The presence of a labor union constantly seeking to foster combative relations with management is, in my experience an almost insurmountable obstacle in creating a satisfying and economically viable working environment. I can tell you from experience it severely reduces the motivation of management to do the very things you appear to be calling for here.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 03:56 pm
So did the Tea Party show up at all today in WI?

I turned on Fox and they ran a piece. The reporter walked over to a group claiming they were counter protesters but all the signs seemed to be in support of the unions.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 03:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Walmart has a profit sharing plan. I read or heard this recently.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:04 pm
@parados,
At least some...

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/host.madison.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/2/c7/caf/2c7cafa1-718e-53f5-a123-f2186fe38370-revisions/4d602a0e599e8.image.jpg
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:06 pm
@JPB,
The caption on this one says it's a group of Walker supporters
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/host.madison.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/6/96/b73/696b7313-d186-599e-a1e2-9a4743cc2107-revisions/4d602a1d070ef.image.jpg

Quote:
Camera crews capture a rally organized in support of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker outside the State Capitol building Saturday, Feb. 19, 2011. Ongoing demonstrations, organized following release of the governor's budget relief bill, have drawn national media attention. JOHN HART - State Journal


More
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:14 pm
@JPB,
So you can pay someone to stand with a sign stating he is a teacher supporting Walker and that prove what?

If would had been fun to had interview that gentleman.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:30 pm
@BillRM,
He may be a private school teacher waiting to cash in on this ordeal!
0 Replies
 
 

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