Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Well, they consistently claimed this was a budget issue, and then turned around and stripped it from a budget bill in order to pass it.
work rules have a huge impact on budget, but their is a sound rational argument that it is not technically and legally a budget issue.


They claimed OVER AND OVER that it was ONLY a budget issue. So, no; they aren't just doing what they said they were doing, which is dealing with a budget issue.

Quote:

Quote:
The other side didn't offer any compromises. I don't know why you think they did
. There are emails in the press that argue against your assertion. There are also public comments by one GOP senator that argue against your assertion.
[/quote]

Saying that 'maybe in a later bill, we'll fix these problems' isn't a compromise. It's an offer to compromise in the future. Nobody is buying that ****, Hawk.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:05 pm
The Dems may have a point, regarding the illegal nature of the meeting:

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_Open_Meetings_Law

The WI law states that not only do such meetings have to be open to the public, they have to be announced 24 hours in advance.

Cycloptichorn
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
You do believe this to be empirical don't you? Let all of see how this plays out then I would like to see your empirical response to it!

If you do not give a response, do you expect others that have any type of critical thinking for themselves to take you seriously?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I just watched the coverage on MSNBC where a couple dem legislators were saying that the minimum notice was 2 hours and that this meeting was announced at 4:07 and began at 6:00.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
The Dems may have a point, regarding the illegal nature of the meeting
he GOP is going to have to come up with an explaination, and I assume that it will see the courts. However, I take great interest in the DEM response which at this point has been hysterical, which indicates to me that they think this could have been legal and thus will stand...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:27 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
I just watched the coverage on MSNBC where a couple dem legislators were saying that the minimum notice was 2 hours and that this meeting was announced at 4:07 and began at 6:00
And I just saw that one Senator was frantically driving back from IL trying to get to the meeting, and failed....which indicates to me that he thought that this meeting was legal.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Was this fox? Could you please give your source so we all can see the same point of view that you hold?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
An interesting read Cyc...
At first I thought it didn't apply to the legislature, but it turns out it does.
Quote:
Legislative meetings

For the senate and assembly and the committees, subcommittees and other subunits thereof:

* The public notice section of this law does not apply to any meeting of the legislature or its subunits when it is called solely to schedule the business before them, or to adopt resolutions with the sole purpose of scheduling business before the senate or the assembly.
* If any part of this law conflicts with laws for legislative procedure, it does not apply to the senate or general assembly.

Since they didn't schedule business but conducted business, they violated the law.
That leads to this part -
Quote:
The district attorney must enforce this law within 20 days after receiving a verified complaint, otherwise the person making such complaint may bring an action on behalf of and in the name of the state.

Either way, this is going to court from the looks of it.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:43 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
State Sen. Chris Larson (D-Milwaukee) said Wednesday night he attempted to drive back from Illinois to Madison to get to the Capitol before Republicans passed by an 18-1 margin the modified budget-repair bill that focused on collective bargaining.

"Right now, I'm trying to figure out what the hell they're going to do," Larson said when reached by telephone as he was driving. "I'm not going to be the 20th vote. This is on the Republicans' heads right now. If they decide to kill the middle class, it's on them."
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117701028.html
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:46 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Either way, this is going to court from the looks of it.
Yep, and the dems might not get a lot of sympathy from the courts after walking off the job for three weeks and leaving the state to avoid the police. In any case the Dems will be back in Madison tomorrow. If walker is smart he will have the bill passed again with the Dems there just to be safe.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Since the courts will be deciding matters of law, I fail to see how their perceptions of the Democrat lawmakers should affect the outcome.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 07:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well Hawkeye10 good for you and I do mean this in a kind way because what little research that I have done might mean that he is not so bias, but I am sure that I can be wrong! Please keep in mind that there are others that disagree with you that are also some what non bias!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:04 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I just watched the coverage on MSNBC where a couple dem legislators were saying that the minimum notice was 2 hours and that this meeting was announced at 4:07 and began at 6:00.


I don't know how much that matters or will hold up in the end. I don't think the sunshine law technically invalidates laws that were passed during the time frame. The Senate or legislature may have their own internal rules that the Dems were referring to.

Either way, from what I can tell, the Dems in WI are a motivated bunch at the moment. I cannot think that this action is going to help the future Republican candidate in Wisconsin.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:09 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Since the courts will be deciding matters of law, I fail to see how their perceptions of the Democrat lawmakers should affect the outcome.
Then answer me this.....why are the Dem senators, who presumably know the state law better than you do, acting like this action was legal and binding?

In law rights can be forfeited, perhaps by evading the process the dems gave up the right to object to the process. so far as I can see the GOP has not yet explained why this action is legal in their opinion.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:12 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Either way, from what I can tell, the Dems in WI are a motivated bunch at the moment. I cannot think that this action is going to help the future Republican candidate in Wisconsin
Dont be too sure, more than anything else Americans like winners. If the GOP out smarted and outplayed the Dems they are likely to see a positive result politically.
JPB
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:33 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
They claimed OVER AND OVER that it was ONLY a budget issue. So, no; they aren't just doing what they said they were doing, which is dealing with a budget issue.


Actually, they said OVER AND OVER that it was necessary to give the local government bodies the tools they needed to deal with a cut in financial support from the state. I don't recall ever hearing anyone say it was needed in order to balance the state budget.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Resolve; many of those who have worked with, or against Walker, agree he has it.
The governor gave a hint at how he looks at the world, and his place in it, in a speech he gave to the Christian Businessmen's Committee in 2009. Talking about his first, unsuccessful run for governor, Walker summed up his approach to life as "trust and obey" God.
Walker, the son of a Baptist minister, relayed to the crowd two anecdotes that he credits with giving him political perspective.
One involved the story of Jesus and Peter. In the story, Peter walked on water with Jesus' help, until he lost faith and sank into the water.
The other story involved two sailors, one of whom made the mistake of watching the waves break against the boat. Seeing his colleague was getting seasick, the other sailor advised the man to ignore the water and focus at a point on the horizon. That, he said, would help him ride out the storm.
"Keep looking out at the horizon, to the path Christ is calling you to follow," Walker told the crowd. "Don't focus on the waves, and choppy water."
For eight years as Milwaukee County executive, Walker kept the end goal in sight, seeking to reduce the size of government in an office traditionally held by liberals.
During his time there, he cut the government workforce by 20 percent, eliminated the waiting list for long-term care for seniors, and used his veto more than 100 times to cut $44 million in proposed spending.
Each of his nine consecutive budgets held the property tax levy to the previous year's level. But his opponents criticized Walker for proposing unrealistic budgets that had to be fixed. They called him a one trick pony who only cut and never created.
But according to Milwaukee County Board Spokesman Harold Mester, even Walker's opponents respected him and knew he would not back down.
"What you're seeing in Madison now, is basically a repeat of what happened here in Milwaukee for years," Mester said. "I can tell you this: The chairman (Lee Holloway) does not see Walker backing down on this. (Walker) never did at the county level."
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_538e7d70-49eb-11e0-ae00-001cc4c03286.html
JPB
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
No wonder he wants to repeal the 2009 law that requires insurance companies to cover contraception.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:50 pm
@JPB,
Cyclo keeps insisting that the votors did not understand who Walker is, and now that they know him they will throw him out of office. Possible, but highly unlikely. Madison is not wisconsin, and if he has earned the respect of the citizens of Milwaukee County it is highly likely that he can ride out this battle and stay in office as most of the rest of the state is conservative. He seems to be taking the advise that one must spend their political capital early, to try to get as much reform done as can be done as soon as the term starts, and to worry about the next elections votes later. DEMS who object should be mindful that this is exactly what Obama did, and what Obama hopes will work. The difference is that only about half the people wanted expanded health insurance coverage, but just about everyone wants the government to be fiscally responsible.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 08:55 pm
Myths and facts about WI unions.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2679966/posts
 

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