hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
In my opinion, yes. As a matter of fact, I sent a donation to the WI democratic party.
they lost me ten years ago when I first realized that they were doing shady deals with the states and purposefully conspiring with the state to keep the citizens in the dark about what was being done in our names, deals that we were being expected to pay for when presented a bill due many years down the road. I want to spit when they now claim that honor demands that the deals be complied with, that they must get what they have been promised.....as if they are all white and the state leaders who are now trying to get cost under control are all black.

EDIT: I have recently worked for the State of Washington for a few years...I tell you that I know damn well that it was widely understood by membership that the books were being cooked so that the union demands could be met, that benefits, deferred income and liberal leave policies were being shaped to get the workers more without the citizens finding out about it and complaining.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
It works both ways, but at least the dems will never try to destroy the unions.
Have unions shown themselves to be worthy of our support?


Absolutely.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
Those are two separate issues; that most levels of government were not competent enough to live within their means is not the fault of unions. Unions protect workers; without them they would have no power to negotiate wages, benefits, or working conditions. Unions are responsible for most labor laws in existence today. If our country never had unions, I would hate to think what conditions workers would be working in today.

Study about Ceasar Chavez, who organized farm workers, and learn what they were able to accomplish for farm workers.

When my siblings and I were children, we had to work out in the country every summer to earn some money. It was hard work, and there were hardly any protections for farm workers. It's much better today, and all those advances were made because of the farm worker's union.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Unions protect workers;
I am old school, I believe that unions are supposed to advance the interests of their membership, and part of doing that is working with management to keep the gravy train flowing. When unions decided that they are parasites and that maximum fulfillment of immediate greed is their mandate I fell out of love. If unions wanted my support in their current fight with the states they should have conducted themselves with honor years ago and had a conversation with the people who pay them about the true cost of the CBA's .
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
So all unions are bad because 10% of them are. Unions got us a living wage 40 hr work week, and freed our children from haveing to work 80 hr so they and thier parents and siblings can afford to eat. If we go back to industry "giveing " us a liveing wage we are screwed.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:57 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
Unions got us a living wage 40 hr work week, and freed our children from haveing to work 80 hr so they and thier parents and siblings can afford to eat. If we go back to industry "giveing " us a liveing wage we are screwed.
what have unions done for us lately...like in the last 50 years, the time frame where Government workers have been allowed to be unionized? Our economy is a disaster, our middle class is shrinking, families budgets are a disaster, many of our best paying jobs are gone and the flow of the good jobs out to sea is not even letting up..... and you want to put on a song and dance about how great the current worker representation works????!!!
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 05:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Unions got us a living wage 40 hr work week, and freed our children from haveing to work 80 hr so they and thier parents and siblings can afford to eat. If we go back to industry "giveing " us a liveing wage we are screwed.
what have unions done for us lately...like in the last 50 years, the time frame where Government workers have been allowed to be unionized?


The union I was in helped ensure that our jobsite was safe. They got us training and helped people advance their careers. They were willing to help me in a dispute with a real dick of a manager. So yeah; they still do a lot of great things for people. You just don't know **** about what its' like to be in one nowadays, and would rather rely upon lies and movie-like characterizations of them as thugs.

Quote:
Our economy is a disaster, our middle class is shrinking, families budgets are a disaster, many of our best paying jobs are gone and the flow of the good jobs out to sea is not even letting up..... and you want to put on a song and dance about how great the current worker representation works????!!!


It's not a song and dance; unionization isn't responsible for the things you list. The co-opting of our government by the very rich and Corporations, which really swang into high gear in the 80's, is responsible for that.

And you KNOW that's true, I've seen you write the exact same thing here many times. Yet you still want to attack and blame the unions!

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 05:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
"Done for us lately?" It's an on-going battle to make sure workers are represented to level the playing field. Do you honestly believe all employers are fair, and will remain fair without unions?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 07:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Do you honestly believe all employers are fair, and will remain fair without unions?
I dont think that unions have done very much to keep employers fair, thus I dont have much use for unions. And it is not just the economic beating that workers have taken that leads me to this conclusion, it is also the invasion of our personal space by employers, and the demand that we be at their beck and call 24/7, and everything else that shows us that employers feel no loyalty to their employees nor any concern for their general wellbeing. Thing is, Unions have hardly done any better for those now few people whom they represent, and they have not done anything for the rest of us for decades either.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 07:22 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Yet you still want to attack and blame the unions!
The proof is in the pudding, Unions have failed to perform during my lifetime so as much as my politics believes in Unions in theory, even though I have spent a couple of years living in Student Co-op house back when they still were sort of run by the students and thus I loved the life of brother and sisterhood, and even though I have spent several years as a union man I can not support the present day unions. If they wanted to reform and if the begged forgiveness for their sins I would be open to reconsidering my position. At this point they are on par with the Vatican, a once great institution that could perhaps have some relevance going forwards but I am not counting on it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 07:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
You are missing the whole point of unions; union membership has been dropping for many decades now, and that resulted in employees not having any say about pay and benefits. This has been going on for some 30-years, while the CEO's increased their pay 400-fold, the middle class and poor have remained virtually stagnant when it comes to buying power. Over 80% of the wealth in this country is owned by the top 10%.

This is the reality from the destruction of unions. There is no longer a level playing field. I'm surprised you haven't been the victim of this drag for some 3 decades now.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 09:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You are missing the whole point of unions; union membership has been dropping for many decades now, and that resulted in employees not having any say about pay and benefits.
You are showing that you fundementally dont understand the problem...those industries where the unions did drive up wages and hold on to them have been greatly harmed by their high pay scales. Globalization has driven down the value of work on the free market, Unions cant do anything about that. To solve the problem either globalization or the free market of labor has to end. Workers banding together to demand more will not do a damn thing but make them unemployed.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 09:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
Nope; it's contingent upon management to make the right decisions to prevent the company from going bankrupt. They are not required to pay more in wages and benefits than any company can afford. It's called negotiation; there are no guns at the negotiating table. It's stupid to give away the farm, but there are successful companies that are worker owned. There are many unionized industries in this country - even though the membership has been dropping. They are successful to the extent that non-union companies also fail as businesses.

From the Economic Policy Institute:
Quote:
Labor Policy

EPI's research on Labor Policy explores a range of issues that affect workers, from union membership and employees' rights to organize to the rights of various groups of employees, such as interns. As union membership rates declined in recent decades, wages for most workers stagnated and income inequality grew to levels not seen since 1929. EPI has long maintained that strong unions foster a strong middle class and are particularly important in times of high unemployment and overall job insecurity.

EPI research shows that unions raise living standards for union and non-union workers, make companies more efficient and productive, and balance the interests of owners and investors with those of workers so that profits are shared.

Forty prominent economists, including three Nobel laureates, have signed onto a statement in favor of the Employee Free Choice Act, which would restore the rights of American workers to join unions without fear of intimidation. “A rising tide lifts all boats only when labor and management bargain on relatively equal terms,” the statement said. “In recent decades, most bargaining power has resided with management.”

The Employee Free Choice Act would impost penalties on employers who harass or fire union sympathizers, or otherwise try to scare workers away from a union. If a majority of employees at a workplace sign cards favoring a union, the act would require an employer to recognize it, rather than undertaking a long, costly and destructive battle. The act also would bring in a third-party arbitrator to produce a fair contract if the two sides can't agree on one within a year. EPI has prepared a question-and-answer document to explain how the law would work and why it is needed.

Another recent topic of focus has been the inadequate regulation of student internships. The EPI Policy Memo, Not-So-Equal Protection, proposed a new procedure for ensuring that interns do not take the place of regular paid employees. That memo also proposed extending basic workplace protections to interns, including protections against discrimination and harassment.

In February of 2010, EPI staff met with officials of the Labor Department’s Wage and Hour Division to discuss the growing prevalence of unpaid internships and the need for the federal government to provide clearer guidance for employers, colleges, and students, along with much stronger enforcement of the wage and hour laws regarding internships.

The Labor Department later posted a fact sheet for employers clarifying that “interns in the for-profit private sector most often will be considered employees who must be paid minimum wage and overtime.”
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 11:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Nope; it's contingent upon management to make the right decisions to prevent the company from going bankrupt. They are not required to pay more in wages and benefits than any company can afford
expecting corporate management to look after the long term best interests of the company has not been a better bet than expecting the politicians to look after the long term best interests of the country...as you well know. And I dont buy your argument...even if we got rid of the fraud and incompetence in corporate management at the end of the day managers dont have the ability to pay American workers what they want and what they think they deserve. There is always someone somewhere in the world who will work for a couple of bucks a day, and unless oil gets to be several multibles of what it is now it will always be cheaper overall to have the two dollar a day guy do the work.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 01:09 am
@hawkeye10,
Wrong; if companies go bankrupt, they "all" lose their jobs. As I've said before, non-union businesses also go bankrupt, and it's not because of the union. You just can't figure that one out.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 01:33 am
@cicerone imposter,
was the GM bankruptcy because of the union or management or both? I not sure we can fully blame management because they were often faced with a choice between paying too much for labor and dieing by strike, which is a choice that the union imposed upon them.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 11:07 am
@hawkeye10,
It's both; you haven't been reading my past opinions if you have to ask this question.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 11:32 am
The headlines in MSN are as follows..

Return or workers will be axed, Wis. Dems warned

Fired workers burn senior executive to death


Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 11:38 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

The headlines in MSN are as follows..

Return or workers will be axed, Wis. Dems warned

Fired workers burn senior executive to death




Yup. Walker is threatening the workers of the State in order to try and compell the Dems to come back. It's a little pathetic really. And what more, he told the Koch-brother impersonator on the phone that this is what they were going to do as a tactic to try and get them back.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2011 01:50 pm
And it's not going over well for him.

Quote:
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's efforts to strip public employee unions of most of their collective bargaining rights appears to be so unpopular, that a Rasmussen poll now finds that almost 60% of likely Wisconsin voters disapprove of his job performance.

That finding shows just how quickly Walker -- who was elected to his first term last November with 52% of the vote -- has sunk just in his first two months in office. And it comes one day after Rasmussen released results from the same poll, all of which showed public opinion firmly on the side of the unions in the labor rights battle that has deadlocked the state capitol for the past few weeks.

In the poll, 57% of respondents said they disapprove of Walker's job performance -- including 48% who say they strongly disapprove. Meanwhile, only 43% said they approve of the job Walker is doing.


http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/rasmussen-poll-almost-six-in-ten-wisconsin-voters-disapprove-of-gov-walker.php?ref=fpblg

When even the sycophant Republican pollster is showing you sinking, things are not good!

Cycloptichorn
 

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