Wrestlin' in Wisconsin

@BillRM,

Quote:

It going to be interesting if the whole state government of Wisconsin end up grinding to a halt and no bills are being pay, no state workers are being pay and no interest on state bonds are being pay all over Walker wish to break the unions at all costs.

Or because elected public servants failed to show up to work for weeks because they do not like how the dice of democracy rolled.....it all depends on how one looks at it.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Or because elected public servants failed to show up to work for weeks because they do not like how the dice of democracy rolled.....it all depends on how one looks at it.

True however I do not think that the citizens of Wisconsin either way is going to be happy and it is Walker who had started the state down this road not the Democrats.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
This whole thing is turning into a public relations nightmare for Walker.
Really? I was just reading a journalism piece that was claiming that Walker has made himself into a GOP hero in record time. I expect that he sleeps fine...

A 'journalism piece?' Do tell. Link to it, please.

I would remind you that you still have not told us why you aren't willing to sacrifice, but you are advocating for others to do so. Do you think I'm just going to drop this, Hypocrite? I assure you that I'm not.

I still want to hear one good reason from you that, in these tough economic times, your pension shouldn't be immediately cut - before those who are still actually working, in fact.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

Half of America’s voters favor public sector unions for government workers, but they strongly oppose the tactic by Wisconsin state senators to flee their state to prevent a vote that would limit the rights of such unions.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that only 25% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of this tactic, while 67% disapprove. State legislators in Indiana have used the same approach to avoid a vote in their state. (To see survey question wording, click here.)
Sizable majorities of Republicans and voters not affiliated with either major party reject such a strategy. Democrats are fairly evenly divided, with 48% approving and 44% disapproving.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/67_disapprove_of_legislators_fleeing_wisconsin_to_avoid_vote

I see no reason to expect Wisconsin citizens to feel differently than US citizens on this issue..

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

... except for the fact that ALL polling in WI directly contradicts what you wrote here. All of it.

Rasmussen is well-known for manipulating their polls by altering the 'likely voter' screen to get the results he wants. Additionally, he's been caught in the past over-sampling certain geographic areas, such as the South, where Unionism is highly unpopular historically.

In short: not persuasive. Find an actual poll of WI citizens that supports that position and you'd have a better argument.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

I would remind you that you still have not told us why you aren't willing to sacrifice

I have told you a couple of times that I have already given more than my share back, that in my opinion it is time for others to give back. You are not able to listen for some reason.

Quote:

I still want to hear one good reason from you that, in these tough economic times, your pension shouldn't be immediately cut

My wife is the military member, and she is still on active duty. However, I have said that I expect military pensions to be cut again, and I would not object so long as the cut is on par with what other public employees take for cuts. I do have a strong opposition to cutting VA health care to those who have been wounded in war however. We have not seen Federal Employees take a pension hit yet, so it woulf be unfair to take from military pensions at this time.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I would remind you that you still have not told us why you aren't willing to sacrifice
I have told you a couple of times that I have already given more than my share back, that in my opinion it is time for others to give back. You are not able to listen for some reason.

Well, it's nonsensical. Why should I believe that you've given 'more than your fair share?' When did you do that? In what way? What did you give up? You offer vague generalities, but those aren't convincing to anyone.

And even more so, why should I give a ****? We are out of money, Hawk!!! This is the line you keep spouting off to justify forcing OTHERS to sacrifice. Why should your sob story keep your precious gov't paycheck off the block?

Quote:

Quote:
I still want to hear one good reason from you that, in these tough economic times, your pension shouldn't be immediately cut
My wife is the military member, and she is still on active duty. However, I have said that I expect military pensions to be cut again, and I would not object so long as the cut is on par with what other public employees take for cuts.

NOW we're getting somewhere! That's what I was looking for.

Quote:

I do have a strong opposition to cutting VA health care to those who have been wounded in war however. We have not seen Federal Employees take a pension hit yet, so it woulf be unfair to take from military pensions at this time.

Well, as long as you're willing to advocate for taking from you at the same time you do others, you're on firmer ground.

Do you see how callous your own arguments are, when turned against you?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Find an actual poll of WI citizens that supports that position and you'd have a better argument

I have not seen such data, if it exists please present it...otherwise we go with the best data we have, which is what I presented. I hope you are not trained in the sciences, because your logic continues to be abnormally deeply flawed.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Find an actual poll of WI citizens that supports that position and you'd have a better argument
I have not seen such data, if it exists please present it...otherwise we go with the best data we have, which is what I presented. I hope you are not trained in the sciences, because your logic continues to be abnormally deeply flawed.

I've listed 5-6 polls of WI residents in this thread. None of them support your position and all contradict it. Feel free to read back through the thread. Hell, I just posted a poll today that directly contradicts what you say here.

If you're too lazy to look, write back and say 'I'm too lazy to look.' And I'll go find them for you and re-post them here. Just want you to be up-front about it.

From what I can tell, Hawk, you don't appear to be trained in much anything at all, other than being a jerk to people you don't know, and creeping out women online.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

but those aren't convincing to anyone.

I am sure that the others are deeply gratified to have you willing to speak for them, to see that you presume to know their minds...*sarcasm*

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
but those aren't convincing to anyone.
I am sure that the others are deeply gratified to have you willing to speak for them, to see that you presume to know their minds...*sarcasm*

Did you say this without a hint of irony, Hawkeye? Mr. "I speak for America?" Laughing

I could find 10 examples of you doing that just in this thread and you know it!

Look, I don't give a **** about cutting your stupid pension. I'm just turning your arguments around against you, so that you can get an inkling of what a dick you've been on this topic.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

I've listed 5-6 polls of WI residents in this thread. None of them support your position and all contradict it

I have seen no such evidence, as none of the polls that I saw asked the question "did the Dems who left the state do the right thing". I suspect that your reading comprehension is faulty rather than my understanding of the facts.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

so that you can get an inkling of what a dick you've been on this topic.

America has serious problems, there is not enough money to keep promises that have been made over the last decades, cuts need to be made that will hurt people deeply and we need to decide who is going to get hurt and how much....and you sit here getting pissy because the process is not nice?? I am so sorry that reality is interfering with your fantasy life ideas about how people should behave in a power struggle over who is going to get hurt.

It would be nice if you were grown up enough to care about grown up things, it this case it would be who is fighting for ideas that can work and who is willing to be fair, who is "nice" is what children care about.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawk, I agree with your general principle, but we can't generalize to include all government and/or union workers. It depends a great deal on various issues that must be addressed. It's true that some school administrators are "over paid" for their jobs, and agree their salaries and benefits should be decreased, but it must be done on a case-by-case basis - taking into consideration what impact it will have on "everything" else that must and should be considered.

It's called "reasonableness" in my books. e.g.; You can't pay $400,000 salary to a school administrators while they are cutting back on teachers, increasing class size, and cutting school supplies; that makes no sense.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

Does anyone remember when Texas Republicans did the same thing?

Yes. Except that it was Texas Democrats - not the Republicans.

0 Replies

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Really? I too would like to have a closed and unquestioning mind excessively prone to categorical judgments and intolerant of conflicting perspectives. What would I need to do to merit one of those, so that I can be just like you?

I believe you are already virtually there - though we are very different people.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

The problem with your argument hawk is that taxes are at their LOWEST POINTS IN ANY OF OUR LIFETIMES!!! We can't afford the obligations of the past because Republicans (with the help of some Dems) have slashed taxes to the bone.

This isn't a coincidence. This was the plan all along by proponents of 'small government.'

We made the promises; but we don't want to pay for them now that the bills are due. Your solution is to break the promises. Where's your willingness to pay higher taxes to fulfill the promises? To uphold your end of the deal?

I don't know why you think that others should sacrifice, but not you. Taxpayers paying lower rates then are needed to support the programs that we have in place is as responsible for the failures we see today as anything else. But you'd rather see others hurt, not yourself. That's pretty selfish.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

It's called "reasonableness" in my books. e.g.; You can't pay $400,000 salary to a school administrators while they are cutting back on teachers, increasing class size, and cutting school supplies; that makes no sense.

And cutting pay alone is not going to solve the problem, as we have too many people in the schools that we need to pay, it is the system that is broke not just the pay scales. Also, David Brooks has a good point today that we should be focusing attention on taking from seniors and doing careful analysis of where we can cut with the least harm, which we are not doing. We are cutting programs devoted to those who do not vote first and hardest...which in my opinion is yet another indication of how sick our democracy is. The current public debt problem and our current economic problems are symptoms of a much more profound problem in America, and we will never be able to fix the symptoms until we solve the problem, which we dont even see yet.

America is politically broken because we are a spiritually broken people, we are not very wise, but that I mean that we dont know the value of things and we dont care about the rights things. We are short sighted and are full of way too much narcissism for our own good. We dont fix this until we find God again.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

You have acknowledged the interests (or at least existence) of those who favor smaller government here. That, to a large degree is the fundamental issue before us generally, and the people of Wisconsin in particular. We face a perverse combination of public employee unions and paid legislators who have vastly expanded the cost of government, without in most cases raising the standards of service . They stand in the way of the smaller, less intrusive governments that many people favor.

The other higher taxed bigger government western nations with which we have been so blithely compared are increasingly finding their political & economic models acutely unsustainable in the contemporary world and in contemporary demographic conditions. We aren't as far down that road as are they, but we are moving there fast, and in the states and counties of the country the budget crises are increasingly at hand. Some corrective action is required.

You apparently believe that all of these problems can be resolved by taxing and otherwise reducing the incomes of the evil entrepreneurs and managers at the top of the income scale here, and that doing so can be accomplished without compromising our basic liberties or any adverse economic side effects. Unfortunately the legislation proposed to accomplish that would hit anyone with an income over $250K , and that includes lots of folks who don't fit the evil model and would have very significant adverse effects on our economy.

The laughably unsustainable condition of state budgets from New Jersey to New York, Illinois, California and many other states demonstrates the follies attendant to the current political dynamic. Something significant has to change and I do not believe it will merely be taxes.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I was only providing one example of how this fiscal crisis must be resolved. It's not only about schools and teachers. It's about cost/benefit analysis, and making the necessary changes to cut cost - and increase taxes to meet the necessary social needs of our society.

This Great Recession is not the time to cut all government services or cost; it's the time to evaluate them and arrive at creating efficiencies and laying out a plan to continue providing the necessary services to our citizens. That's much more important than our war in Afghanistan - or any place else.

We're still spending too much for national defense. That should be cut down to the bones, and let the world community share in the security of this planet.

How many billions are we spending on one airplane for the Air Force?

That's stupid!

1 Reply

Wrestlin' in Wisconsin

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