Wrestlin' in Wisconsin

@JamesMorrison,

The rules of Cyclo's evidence game are quite interesting. Any source that disagrees with his fixed beliefs is automatically deemed invalid, regardless of the content of its information or argument. Conversely any information from a source he favors is, by definition, unimpeachable.

That the CRA encouraged increased numbers of loans to folks that would otherwise not qualify for them is crystal clear from the content and stated intent of the act itself. Despite this Cyclo continues with his categorical denial that the CRA could have in any way contributed to the increased incidence of unqualified, nonconforming loans that have been documented to have so rapidly fed the final stages of the housing bubble.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

The rules of Cyclo's evidence game are quite interesting. Any source that disagrees with his fixed beliefs is automatically deemed invalid, regardless of the content of its information or argument. Conversely any information from a source he favors is, by definition, unimpeachable.

This is a gross exaggeration and untrue. Not only that, I have never indicated anything even resembling this in any of my posts.

This is just a lazy slur.

Quote:

That the CRA encouraged increased numbers of loans to folks that would otherwise not qualify for them is crystal clear from the content and stated intent of the act itself. Despite this Cyclo continues with his categorical denial that the CRA could have in any way contributed to the increased incidence of unqualified, nonconforming loans that have been documented to have so rapidly fed the final stages of the housing bubble.

That's because my denial of that is the truth, George. Loans handed out under the CRA program were much less likely to default than others. They are not the loans responsible for the housing market crash. This is a well-documented fact.

Not only that, but blaming the financial crisis on the housing market crash - which is inevitable in a cyclical market such as housing - is a pathetic excuse for actual analysis of the situation. It explains nothing about how our largest banks and financial trading houses all failed simultaneously. And neither you nor any other right-wing participant here has been able to adequately explain those events.

The same way that you were wrong a couple of pages ago, you're wrong now. I'm telling you this because I've read lots of analysis of the issue and have looked into the matter in some depth. It wasn't but two pages ago that you were apologizing for making gross factual errors while dripping condescending certitude in the posts immediately proceeding; are you sure you want to go here again so soon?

You should stay away from phrases like 'well-documented' if you don't ever intend to present, yaknow, documentation. At some point.

Cycloptichorn

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But, hey, why argue with each other when we can stay on topic.

From a WI blog:

Quote:

Dale Schultz, Senator from Wisconsin's 17th Senatorial District will not vote for Gov. Walker's Union busting Koch Bros. abomination. Not sure how many we need to stop this, but I heard a young lady say "we need two more" on the Qik feed.
Cheers were audible as the announcement was made. The people are still in the statehouse.
It's official, we need 2 more. 17th District stretches from SW Wisconsin up to Juneau.
Schultz must be a decent guy.

First Republican I've seen to be reported to not vote for the bill. From what I've read not a few of the Republican senators don't really give a **** about this issue outside the financial end of things and are getting worried about the unwanted attention and threats of recall elections.

Cycloptichorn

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Additionally, the police defied earlier reports and expectations by not clearing out the capitol building tonight -

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi-capitol-police-chief-protesters-can-stay-tonight.php?ref=fpblg

Cycloptichorn

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

That the CRA encouraged increased numbers of loans to folks that would otherwise not qualify for them is crystal clear from the content and stated intent of the act itself.

And where exactly does it do this in the act?

No where in the act does it require banks to make loans to people unqualified for them.

1 Reply

@parados,

Do you understand the meaning of the word, "otherwise" ?

I realize your proficiency in selecting our subsets of what others write in order to find contrived contradictions. However, you have slipped rather obviously here.

1 Reply

Quote:

By Robert J. Samuelson
Monday, February 28, 2011
What we are witnessing in Wisconsin and elsewhere is the death knell of Big Labor. Once upon a time, most Americans could identify the head of the AFL-CIO. He was George Meany, the cigar-chomping ex-plumber who ran the union federation from 1955 to 1979. He was one of the nation's great power brokers, much quoted and wooed by presidents. It's doubtful that as many Americans can name Meany's present successor. (Answer: Richard Trumka, former head of the mine workers' union.)

The American labor movement has been in eclipse for decades, but public- sector unions were one of its few remaining bastions. Now, their power too is waning. States and localities face long-term budget squeezes. Labor costs represent roughly half of their spending, notes the Cato Institute's Chris Edwards. Pension and retiree health benefits are underfunded. Teachers unions are being pressed to weed out poor performers. All these unions are on the defensive. Critics are less Republicans than taxpayers and parents
.
.
.The result is a dilemma that transcends partisan union-bashing. Striving too hard to protect existing wages and benefits will stimulate more political opposition, and not just from Republicans (see Gov. Andrew Cuomo in New York). But sacrificing too much may trigger a revolt from angry rank-and-file members. Private-sector unions couldn't solve this dilemma; they never reconciled past successes with future survival. So Big Labor became Little Labor. If public-sector unions fail, Little Labor could become Mini Labor

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/27/AR2011022702873.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Slightly pessimistic, however if it becomes the norm for citizens to decide that unions and the dems are working against the taxpayers then it is all over. We seem to be getting closer to this being the conventional interpretation.

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@hawkeye10,

It is a divide and conquest as how dare anyone else in the middle class have greater benefits if you do not share them.

And this is being sold on Fox by people who would laugh at the salaries and benefits of those teachers.

The true question is how in the hell did we become a third world country where all the wealth is in the hands of so few of our citizens.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

You wonder how this happened after the rape thread?? The diconnect between perception and reality is massive.....the level of corruption in our society is massive.....the fear level is out of sight and is perpetuated by people who have an interest in keeping it that way. Those who steal from america know what works, it is both our wealth and our freedom that they take.

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@georgeob1,

I understand the word perfectly george....
Where does the act change the requirements to get a loan? "otherwise" the loan requirements would be the same if there is no change in requirements.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Slightly pessimistic, however if it becomes the norm for citizens to decide that unions and the dems are working against the taxpayers then it is all over. We seem to be getting closer to this being the conventional interpretation.

Maybe this thing has got to run it course and the union bashers win. Things go the way the republicans or whoever they want and the middle class becomes the lower class wage earners. People will probably soon get enough of it.

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I think one of the major things that this discussion has been lacking is a realization that members of the Unions in question aren't thugs, or tough guys, or mobsters or teamsters, who want to just suck away society's productivity.

They are teachers - people who bust their ass to help kids have a better life, for less pay than practically any other profession. You would have to pay babysitters far more money per child than we pay teachers.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5177/5468945955_eea90751e6.jpg

These people provide a service to society. They put up with all the brats that you and I are glad we don't have to. They deserve some respect - certainly more than is shown to them here by some, and more than Walker is showing.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

TeacherPortal Salary Rank: 28th

Starting Salary: $25,222
Average Salary: $46,390
Salary Raise Last Year: 4.7%
Salary Raise Last 10 Years: 21.5%

http://teacherportal.com/district/wisconsin/milwaukee-public-schools-(mps)

I am guessing with their fab bennies that the average cost per teacher per year is at least $60K, and they only work 39 weeks a year which comes out to $1540 a week of work per average to the taxpayers. These are the people you want to claim are underpaid? In what universe?

Same site
http://teacherportal.com/salary

says that the average US teacher pay is $32 a hour, and I am betting this is WITHOUT benies....these people are the same ones that we are supposed to get all weepy over when they rally around their paychecks? I. DONT. THINK. SO.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
TeacherPortal Salary Rank: 28th

Starting Salary: $25,222
Average Salary: $46,390
Salary Raise Last Year: 4.7%
Salary Raise Last 10 Years: 21.5%

http://teacherportal.com/district/wisconsin/milwaukee-public-schools-(mps)

I am guessing with their fab bennies that the average cost per teacher per year is at least $60K, and they only work 39 weeks a year which comes out to $1540 a week of work per average to the taxpayers. These are the people you want to claim are underpaid? In what universe?

I think your 'guess' is ridiculous. You have no idea what their 'bennies' cost.

Yes, they are underpaid. The job they do is difficult and taxing. It is emotionally trying. YOU wouldn't do it. Most wouldn't do it.

I would point out that saying they 'work 39 weeks' is a lie. Most teachers have extensive work which has to be done at home; their job isn't an 8-5 like others. All the teachers I know spend time grading papers, developing lesson plans and other crap for school, all week, in the evenings while the rest of us relax. They cram as much work into those weeks as you do your entire year.

When we have jobs that are necessary, but people don't want to engage in them, they command a higher wage for doing them. Simple economics.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

State Cents Spent on Benefits
For Every Dollar of Salary
1) West Virginia 36.5
2) Michigan 36.3
3) Utah 35.5
4) Delaware 34.7
5) Oregon 34.6
6) Maryland 34.3
7) Maine 33.5
8) Wisconsin 33.3
9) Florida 33.2
10) Rhode Island 32.0
11) Pennsylvania 31.5
12) Washington 31.1

http://www.calnews.com/Archives/1YB_II_sal.htm

so wisconsin Beenies come to just over $15K per year per teacher...I was damn close...

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

hawk has the habit of criticizing without so much as understanding what he's talking about. As you said, Cyclo, teacher's jobs isn't a 9 to 5 job; and we also know that teachers have been buying supplies for their classes for many decades because most school district is in financial straights.

Add to that the fact that to become a certified teacher, it takes more than four years of college education.

Let's now compare the teacher's responsibility against any other job that doesn't require a college education with higher wages and benefits.

hawk needs to be more hawkish in his comprehension of issues.

One more thing; there is no job that the cost to carry the employee ends with their salary and benefits. So why is he picking only on teachers?

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@hawkeye10,

Something that the whiney Wisconsin teachers should keep in mind

Quote:

Percentage By Which Average Teacher's
State Wages Exceeded Average Worker's Wages
1) Pennsylvania 65.2
2) Rhode Island 59.8
3) Vermont 53.9
4) Oregon 53.7
5) Wisconsin 52.1

http://www.calnews.com/Archives/1YB_II_sal.htm

I think in the post great recession era when teachers complain that the guy who wants to pull in compensation rates to teachers when teachers do so much better than most of the people who pay their salaries is a Hitler and who then ditch school to go to Madison to complain with fake doctor excuses in hand is SHUT THE **** UP.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Why are you picking on teachers? Why don't you get a life?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Why are you picking on teachers? Why don't you get a life?

I am not picking on teachers, it is a noble profession. But we live in deflationary times, it is time for them to take pay cuts. We also need to repeal NCLB and take a hatchet to our education cost structure. Our schools cost way more to run than we can afford.

Cyclo was trying to get teary about teachers, I merely responded as increasing numbers of Americans are doing. We have seen the song and dance about how teachers are underpaid for decades. That dog does not hunt post Great Recession...these folks need to get current.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Of coarse we live in deflationary times; who doesn't know that? But you are picking on teachers when the problem is more universal.

1 Reply

Wrestlin' in Wisconsin

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