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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 08:46 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
You need to listen to fox "the news that I have prepared for you!


Actually can save money on a fox (or news ltd) subscription by simply imagining what Rupert wants you to think.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 08:47 pm
@George,
Because: what has been so bad about Egyptian life that drove the people to the streets? Who enforced that status quo?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 08:52 pm
@hingehead,
Oh, that's so clever.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:06 pm
Cheers squared to the brave and relentless Egyptians who have been laying their lives on the line for democracy!

Hopefully, if and when Egypt becomes a fully functioning democracy, those who lost their lives in this struggle will be remembered and honored as national heroes.

No one would be more thrilled than me if the aftermath of this uprising is a fully democratic Egypt.

It can be if the demonstators' leaders shed their rebellious zeal for a reasoned plan for Egypt's future.

Listening to El Barradai's interview on NPR this evening, it seems clear that the moderates are willing to work with the Army and look to free elections no sooner than a year from now.

This is a sensible plan.

But, will the firebrands be willing to wait that long, and will forces like the MB resist exploiting their fervor?

One man, one vote, one election is not the sort of democracy that Egyptians want or need.

Mubarak is gone, but this remains a highly complex situation that defies easy predictions.

For now the Egyptians have every right to celebrate, but if they believe the war has been won, they are doomed to lose it.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:15 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
One man, one vote, one election is not the sort of democracy that Egyptians want or need.

What do you mean?
Could you expand on that, Finn?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:49 pm
How will the fall of Mubarak impact on Israel?
What should Israel's response be to the Egyption revolution?
How might it change Israel's security & relationships with its neighbours?
Here's one view, recently published in Haaretz:


Quote:
Betting on Egypt democracy is Israel’s only choice
By Carlo Strenger
Published 14:17 04.02.11
Latest update 14:17 04.02.11


Nobody can be certain that cold peace between Israel and Egypt will survive Mubarak's fall and the emergence of a new political system.

For decades Israel’s overall strategy was based on two conflicting assumptions. One is that Israel’s strategic position depends on the survival of authoritarian regimes like those of Mubarak and Ben Ali. Common “wisdom” has been that the alternative to these dictatorships is Islamic fundamentalism, and this means endless, often armed conflict with Israel’s neighbors. The Iranian revolution of 1978 and the Algerian elections in the 1990s seem to indicate that repressive regimes that democratize indeed move towards Islamization.

There has also been another common wisdom - which Netanyahu has been identified with: there will be no peace in the Middle East, and Israel will know no security as long as there is no democracy in Arab countries. This theory is based on the rather strong evidence that developed democracies tend not to go to war with each other, because, once a strong middle class is established, war is contrary to the interests of the people.

The problem in Israel’s position is rather obvious: the support for corrupt regimes and the call for democracy mostly contradict each other, and this has not just been Israel’s problem, but also that of the U.S., which often supported autocratic regimes. ...<cont>


http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/betting-on-egypt-democracy-is-israel-s-only-choice-1.341290
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:52 pm
@msolga,
msolga, That last paragraph says a lot more than people realize. I'll repeat it, because people should be aware of how Israel's democracy "works."

Quote:
The problem in Israel’s position is rather obvious: the support for corrupt regimes and the call for democracy mostly contradict each other, and this has not just been Israel’s problem, but also that of the U.S., which often supported autocratic regimes. ...<cont>
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:54 pm
@msolga,
Yes.

Democracy in Egypt will be short lived if a majority votes for an autocratic regime that prohibits future elections.

We often see faux supporters of democracy scold us for not abiding by the "will of the people" who in a single election vote in an autocracy.

"Who are we to judge who they vote for?!"

Answer: People who understand that a fledgling democracy can go quickly down in flames if there is a one man, one vote, one election result.

A truly democratic nation is built on much more than a single popular election.

It must have the institutional foundation of democracy:

*A free press
* Freedom of association
* Rule of Law
* Dispersed power
* An independent judiciary
* An apolitical military
* Regular elections
*Protection of minority opinions
* A multi-party political system

I'm not predicting it will happen, but it could be the case that given the opportunity for a pure democratic election, the people of Egypt could vote in another dictatorship.

Such an unfortunate outcome is far more likely to occur if pressure to have nearly immediate elections wins out.

Egypt needs time to build democratic institutions. (El Barradai agrees with me)

Obviously there is a risk to not striking while the iron is hot, but if there really is a faith in the Egyptian army, they can take some time and do it right.

If elections were held tomorrow, the group better organized, not neceesarily best for Egypt, would win.

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:57 pm
ZURICH (Reuters) – Switzerland has frozen assets possibly belonging to Hosni Mubarak, who stepped down as president of Egypt Friday after 30 years of rule, a spokesman for the foreign ministry said.

"I can confirm that Switzerland has frozen possible assets of the former Egyptian president with immediate effect," spokesman Lars Knuchel said, declining to specify how much money was involved.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 09:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes indeed, ci.


The very last paragraph of the article gives me some hope. :

Quote:
...For Israel, it is crucial not to use the events in Egypt to argue, as Moshe Arens has done in recent days, that Israel can only make peace with Arab dictators, because the Arab people always oppose peace with Israel. The Al Jazeera leaks have shown beyond any doubt that there is a Palestinian partner for peace. If Israel will show that it is capable of relating to the Palestinians from a position of mutuality and to truly respect their dignity and desire for self-determination, the Arab peoples around us may realize that the wellbeing of the whole area depends on moving from confrontation to cooperation, from tyranny to democracy.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:06 pm
@msolga,
It depends entirely on what government replaces him.

As long as the Egyptian army is running things, Israel can feel fairly secure.

If the Muslim Brotherhood is able to achieve ultimate power, Israel best prepare for war.

If a truly democratic government evolves, Israel should be alright, but that's a big "If."

A democratic government in Egypt that is bound and determined to serve the interests of the Egyptian people (40% of whom fall below a very low poverty level) won't concern itself with Israel, Jews, or Zionism.

An Egyptian government that tries to direct Egyptians to beligerence towards Israel will be diverting attention from their inability to fairly govern the country.

Irrespective of what anyone believes about Israeli treatment of Palestinians, Egypt has far too many internal problems to solve without spending a minute or a dime on Israel and Palestine.

But what's the chance that such a rational calculus will win out?

As soon as whomever obtains power in Egypt trips and falls or decides to line their pockets rather than those of the Egyptian people, they will seek to divert attention and animosity to Israel.



msolga
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:30 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Democracy in Egypt will be short lived if a majority votes for an autocratic regime that prohibits future elections.


But (apart from the fact that it will be a while before the Egyptian people have the chance to actually vote. (I hope.) The military is in control at the moment ... ) I doubt very, very much that their choice of leadership would be another autocratic.

An autocratic & corrupt regime is the very thing that inspired them to take to the streets, at great risk, in their thousands. At least 300 have died in the struggle to remove Mubarak.

Why on earth would they choose to elect yet another corrupt autocratic government as a replacement? That makes no sense at all.

You sound a little like that Israeli official (sorry, I've forgotten her name) who declared not so long ago that Egyptians are "not ready" for democracy yet. What exactly would it take for them to be ready? Wink

Quote:
I'm not predicting it will happen, but it could be the case that given the opportunity for a pure democratic election, the people of Egypt could vote in another dictatorship.

I disagree.

Whatever government they do eventually vote in, whether you or I approve of their choice, or think it's the "best" one .... voting for another dictatorship is highly unlikely.

If they do end up with another autocratic government it will be because it was imposed on them, not through choice,
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:39 pm
@msolga,
God bless those who always assume the best.

Check out history.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
No one said the road to democracy in Egypt would be a piece of cake, Finn.
It's still early days, as you know.
But to assume the worst will happen is not necessarily correct, either.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:48 pm
@msolga,
Don't you think that for someone who posted only a few weeks ago that you didn't know much about recent Egyptian political history, that you're claiming to understand an awful lot about what is going on with Egyptian people today? I'm finding your quite strong comments about what you expect to happen/not happen in Egypt quite puzzling.

People have been living there, studying the country for decades - and they're having trouble figuring out what might happen.

It's wonderful that you're so optimistic about the future for Egypt, but I do find it puzzling to see how you've developed what seems to be such a clear understanding of Egypt and its politics when it's been murky to so many for so long.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:53 pm
From Al Jazeera today.:

Quote:
Algeria moves to stave off unrest

Opposition groups say thousands of police drafted in to surround capital a day ahead of planned pro-democracy protests.

Last Modified: 11 Feb 2011 20:35 GMT
http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Images/2011/2/11/201121119338672884_20.jpg
Many demonstrators in Algeria have been inspired by the events unfolding in Egypt and Tunisia [AFP]

Thousands of police are reportedly being drafted into the Algerian capital ahead of planned pro-democracy marches, opposition groups have said.

Said Sadi, the head of the Rally for Culture and Democracy (RCD), said authorities were moving to prevent Saturday's protests in Algiers from taking place.

"Trains have been stopped and other public transport will be as well," he told the AFP news agency.

According to Sadi, around 10,000 police officers were coming into reinforce the 20,000 that blocked the last protest staged on January 22, when five people were killed and more than 800 hurt in clashes.

Attempts to appease


The latest rally is being organised by the National Co-ordination for Change and Democracy (CNCD), a three-week-old umbrella group of opposition parties, civil society movements and unofficial unions inspired by the mass protests in Tunisia and Egypt.

Demonstrators in the oil-rich nation have been protesting over the last few months against unemployment, high food costs, poor housing and corruption - similar issues that fuelled the uprisings in other north African nations.

At least 12 people have set themselves alight in protest against the government since January, four of those dying.

Earlier this month, Abdelaziz Bouteflika, the president, said he would lift emergency powers, address unemployment and allow democratic marches to take place in the country, in a bid to stave off unrest.

However, protests in Algiers remain banned.

Financial support

Bouteflika's attempt to appease protesters is just one of many undertaken by Arab governments concerned about spreading unrest in the region.

In Bahrain, the king offered each family $2,650 on Friday.

The small oil producer is considered the most vulnerable of the Gulf Arab countries to unrest, although seen as unlikely to fall in the same way as Tunisia and Egypt.

The Bahraini government has made several concessions in recent weeks, such as higher social spending and offering to release some minors arrested during a security crackdown against Shia groups last August.

The official Bahrain news agency released a report saying: "To praise the tenth anniversary of the National Action Charter and in recognition of the people of Bahrain.... His Majesty King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa ... will provide the amount of one thousand dinars for each family of Bahrain after adopting necessary legal procedures."

Activists have called for protests on February 14, the tenth anniversary of Bahrain's constitution, but it is not yet clear how widespread they will be.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/2011211195226600204.html
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 11:05 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I'm finding your quite strong comments about what you expect to happen/not happen in Egypt quite puzzling.


I'm reponding to what has been reported time & time again about the objectives of the anti-government protesters over the past 18 days, ehBeth, from media outlet after media outlet ...
Clearly their motivation was to remove an autocratic government & I can't see for the life of me that they'd be keen to replace it with another one.
What exactly are you objecting to in my actual posts?
I think you are misrepresenting what I have actually said.
Earlier on today I posted a Robert Fisk article about real concerns about where the military leadership might take Egypt, despite what the protesters might actually want.
I have not claimed to have a crystal ball, nor the ability to predict what might happen in the future. And I definitely haven't done that.
I am well aware that the best intentioned peoples' revolutions do not always achieve what the people desire.
I was responding to Finn's post, nothing more.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 11:23 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Earlier on today I posted a Robert Fisk article about real concerns about where the military leadership might take Egypt, despite what the protesters might actually want.


His concluding words:

Quote:
Perhaps the shadow of the army is too dark an image to invoke in the aftermath of so monumental a revolution in Egypt. Siegfried Sassoon's joy on the day of the 1918 Armistice, the end of the First World War – when everyone also suddenly burst out singing – was genuine and deserved. Yet that peace led to further immense suffering. And the Egyptians who have fought for their future in the streets of their nation over the past three weeks will have to preserve their revolution from internal and external enemies if they are to achieve a real democracy. The army has decided to protect the people. But who will curb the power of the army?



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/a-tyrants-exit-a-nations-joy-2212487.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 11:23 pm
@msolga,
That's the whole enchilada in a nutshell.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 11:39 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,

How does the US stack up?

*A free press - The US press is free to print what the government tells it to prin, free to say what the government tells it to say.

* Freedom of association - No travel allowed to Cuba. You can associate with terrorists as long as they are right wing American terrorists but there no association allowed with right wing Muslim terrorists or left wing terrorists. In fact even associating with folks from Muslim countries or left wing countries can get you a speedy trip to a country that is a US subcontractor charged with doing "discussions".

* Rule of Law - Except for presidents, members of their gangs, government contractors and anyone else that needs protection from the "rule of law".

* Dispersed power - "Okay, Dems, it's our turn. Your turn in another couple of years. Try and go out of turn and the USSC will smack you down.

* An independent judiciary - Those judges that are go independent are impeached.

* An apolitical military - Yeah, right! The Pentagon, the CIA, the FBI always do exactly as they are told by their political masters.

* Regular elections - You can vote for Tweedledum or Tweedledee but we keep a fervent fight going to make you think you are actually making a choice.

*Protection of minority opinions - There's no doubt that minority opinions are "protected", ie. kept as minority opinions.

* A multi-party political system - Laughing STOP, PLEASE! Laughing YOU'RE KILLING ME! STOP ALREADY! Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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