53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 06:32 pm
@JPB,
I saw that, too. He sounded a bit irritated and I remember him mentioning the word 'spin' when he told Wolf he wanted to clarify what Mubarak actually said.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 06:51 pm
@Irishk,
Watch the military tomorrow. The old guard were supported by the Soviets decades ago. The new officers studied in the U.S. and have access to our technology.
Forget the Saudis with their offer to fill the financial void if U.S. aid is cut off.
Good night, all. This has been a fantastic thread to follow as we monitor what is going on. Thanks.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 06:55 pm
Extracts from Robert Fisk's latest article from Cairo for the Independent.
It's a lengthy article (as always) but well worth reading in its entirety ...:


Robert Fisk: As Mubarak clings on... What now for Egypt?
Friday, 11 February 2011

The people came to witness the end. Their leader had other ideas

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00553/Pg-01-splash-ap_553729t.jpg
Anti-government protesters watch on big screen as Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak makes a televised statement to his nation in Tahrir Square

Quote:
...History may later decide that the army's lack of faith in Mubarak effectively lost his presidency after three decades of dictatorship, secret police torture and government corruption. Confronted by even greater demonstrations on the streets of Egypt today, even the army could not guarantee the safety of the nation. Yet for Mubarak's opponents, today will not be a day of joy and rejoicing and victory but a potential bloodbath.

But was this a victory for Mubarak or a military coup d'état? Can Egypt ever be free? For the army generals to insist upon his departure was as dramatic as it was dangerous. Are they, a state within a state, now truly the guardians of the nation, defenders of the people – or will they continue to support a man who must be judged now as close to insanity? The chains which bound the military to the corruption of Mubarak's regime were real. Are they to stand by democracy – or cement a new Mubarak regime?.....


Quote:
....as yesterday afternoon's events proved all too clearly, it was the senior generals – who enjoy the luxury of hotel chains, shopping malls, real estate and banking concessions from the same corrupt regime – who permitted Mubarak to survive. At an ominous meeting of the Supreme Council of the Egyptian Armed Forces, Defence Minister Mohamed Tantawi – one of Mubarak's closest friends – agreed to meet the demands of the millions of democracy protesters, without stating that the regime would itself be dissolved. Mubarak himself, commander-in-chief of the army, was not permitted to attend. ....


Quote:
....It was too early, last night, for the millions in Tahrir Square to understand the legal complexities of Mubarak's speech. But it was patronising, self-serving and immensely dangerous. The Egyptian constitution insists that presidential power must pass to the speaker of parliament, a colourless Mubarak crony called Fatih Srour, and elections – fair ones, if this can be imagined – held within 60 days. But many believe that Suleiman may choose to rule by some new emergency law and then push Mubarak out of power, staking out a timetable for new and fraudulent elections and yet another terrible epoch of dictatorship. The truth, however, is that ....


Quote:
But neither the army nor Vice-President Suleiman are likely to be able to face the far greater demonstrations planned for today, a fact that was conveyed to 83-year-old Mubarak by Tantawi himself, standing next to Suleiman. Tantawi and another general – believed to be the commander of the Cairo military area – called Washington, according to a senior Egyptian officer, to pass on the news to Robert Gates at the Pentagon. It must have been a sobering moment. For days, the White House had been grimly observing the mass demonstrations in Cairo, fearful that they would turn into a mythical Islamist monster, frightened that Mubarak might leave, even more terrified he might not.

The events of the past 12 hours have not, alas, been a victory for the West. American and European leaders who rejoiced at the fall of communist dictatorships have sat glumly regarding the extraordinary and wildly hopeful events in Cairo – a victory of morality over corruption and cruelty – with the same enthusiasm as many East European dictators watched the fall of their Warsaw Pact nations. Calls for stability and an "orderly" transition of power were, in fact, appeals for Mubarak to stay in power – as he is still trying to do – rather than a ringing endorsement of the demands of the overwhelming pro-democracy movement that should have struck him down.



http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-as-mubarak-clings-on-what-now-for-egypt-2211287.html
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 07:30 pm
Jeff fisher is the new president of egypt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIzn7fhGaiA
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 08:36 pm
@msolga,
from the same link from Rober Fisk

Quote:
To the horror of Egyptians and the world, President Hosni Mubarak – haggard and apparently disoriented – appeared on state television last night to refuse every demand of his opponents by staying in power for at least another five months.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 08:37 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I see Obama as between a rock and a hard place. This is precisely what he called out for last week when he threw his support behind Suleiman. What's he to say now?


And so he scratched his head with the rest of us...

Quote:
The Egyptian people have been told that there was a transition of authority, but it is not yet clear that this transition is immediate, meaningful or sufficient. Too many Egyptians remain unconvinced that the government is serious about a genuine transition to democracy, and it is the responsibility of the government to speak clearly to the Egyptian people and the world. The Egyptian government must put forward a credible, concrete and unequivocal path toward genuine democracy, and they have not yet seized that opportunity.[...]
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 08:43 pm
final update from the Guardian for today

1:48am GMT: Reactions to Obama's more aggressive statement are flooding in. The Guardian's Ewen MacAskill reports from Washington:

Barack Obama last night ended two weeks of dithering over the Egyptian uprising by issuing a statement expressing disappointment with the refusal of Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak, to stand down.

In a lengthy statement, Obama was sceptical about the pace and commitment of the Egyptian government towards democracy and added a rebuke, albeit mild, to Mubarak.

The Associated Press has a stronger reading of Obama's words:

Showing impatience, President Barack Obama on Thursday openly and sharply questioned whether Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's pledge to shift power to his vice president is an "immediate, meaningful or sufficient" sign of reform for a country in upheaval.

Without naming Mubarak, Obama issued a written statement that criticized the leader for not offering clarity to his people or a concrete path to democracy. He called on Egyptian government leaders to do so, declaring: "They have not yet seized that opportunity."

The Washington Post sees Obama putting pressure on Mubarak:

President Obama tried Thursday night to exert more pressure on the Egyptian government, saying that President Hosni Mubarak has not convinced his countrymen that his handover of powers "is immediate, meaningful or sufficient" and must do more.

"Too many Egyptians remain unconvinced that the government is serious about a genuine transition to democracy, and it is the responsibility of the government to speak clearly to the Egyptian people and the world," Obama said in a statement.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 08:49 pm
From someone who doesn't have the dilemma of trying to keep up fronts...

Washington Post
Jim Hoagland
Quote:
An open letter in response to your truculent, deeply misguided speech last night may seem presumptuous. But your good humor during meetings we had over the years encourages me to appeal to you urgently. You have pushed the Egyptian crisis to critical mass. The impending explosion could be devastating to your place in history, your country and mine, and to the entire Arab world - unless you pull back immediately.

When you scheduled your national address, I thought you understood that Egypt's uprising had reached a turning point similar to ones I have witnessed in Poland, East Germany, the Philippines and, most particularly, China. That point arrives when workers strike to support youthful reformers.

The choices for an authoritarian regime then narrow to ceding significant ground or striking back with brute force. You have not moved the real choices beyond those. But you must do so now, even though it means surrendering control to a national unity cabinet and becoming the symbol of all that has gone wrong in Egypt the past 30 years. The Hosni Mubarak I knew could live with that. And you may not be able to live without it.

You were once a man capable of laughing at yourself. Remember when people called you "the Laughing Cow" after you became president because your broad bovine smile resembled the wrapper of a popular French cheese? You accepted being seen by a succession of American presidents as a stolid, unimaginative but useful ally who planted his feet firmly in favor of continuing peace with Israel.

You once stopped mid-interview to ask me the name of "that politician who went out with Donna Rice." I saw a faint smile play across your face. You, too, understood that you had demonstrated a grasp of the human dimension of politics stronger than your understanding of Gary Hart's (or anyone else's) arms control policies.

Such self-awareness is vital in resolving this confrontation. The Egyptian army has cleverly positioned itself between you and the protesters. It is poised to crush either - or both - if its interests are gravely threatened - and you are a liability to the army.

Senior officers have enriched themselves with your connivance, but those under 40 struggle to make ends meet. A split in their ranks is the gravest threat to your nation's stability. The army will not risk it.

You should also recognize the remarkable, promising nature of the mass uprising in Tahrir Square. These protests have not drawn their energy from hatred and prejudice toward the United States and/or Israel. They may in fact reflect a new and authentic Egyptian nationalism that must be nurtured, not crushed. That nationalism can become the regional counterweight to the fanaticism of the Iranian revolution that you and fellow Arab leaders have sought but been unable to create.

And you have a responsibility to Arab and American leaders who have supported you. The longer people occupy the streets of Cairo, the more radical the outcome will be. Egypt cannot afford - as China could after Tiananmen - bloody repression that isolates it internationally. The rise of military leaders through a brutal coup or a government of civilians who reach power through bloody revolt will shake all Arab regimes and spur extremism through the region.

Your jabs at the Obama administration's "intervention" do not help anybody. The United States has bobbed and weaved with each day's developments; this White House is all about tactics, politics and immediacy. Each response to Egypt's crisis has been calibrated more for its effect on the American electorate than on global stability.

But Arab leaders see that kind of maneuvering as weakness. "When America is weak, the rats come out," says one Arab official, referring to turmoil in Lebanon and Yemen. Your stubbornness can only worsen U.S.-Arab relations and ultimately endanger your Arab allies.

A road map for stability can still be traced. Announce immediately a credible truth and reconciliation commission to provide a bridge from past abuses to a better future. Ask the United Nations to help establish an electoral commission and supervise presidential and parliamentary balloting in mid-September. Appoint a provisional national unity cabinet led by reformers. It could include establishment figures such as Vice President Omar Suleiman, Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa and newly minted reformer Mohamed ElBaradei, on the condition that they retire from politics in September. Such action could buy you time as a figurehead president and let you live out your days in Egypt.

"This not about myself," you said Thursday. "It is about Egypt." Precisely, Mr. President. Cede power now. Save your country.

The writer is a contributing editor to The Post. Source
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 09:54 pm
Thomas Friedman
New York TImes

Watching President Hosni Mubarak addressing his nation Thursday night, explaining why he would not be drummed out of office by foreigners, I felt embarrassed for him and worried for Egypt. This man is staggeringly out of touch with what is happening inside his country. This is Rip Van Winkle meets Facebook.

The fact that the several hundred thousand Egyptians in Tahrir Square reacted to Mubarak’s speech by waving their shoes — they surely would have thrown them at him if he had been in range — and shouting “go away, go away,” pretty much sums up the reaction. Mubarak, in one speech, shifted this Egyptian democracy drama from mildly hopeful, even thrilling, to dangerous.

All day here there was a drumbeat of leaks that the fix was in: Mubarak was leaving, the army leadership was meeting and Vice President Omar Suleiman would oversee the constitutional reform process. The fact that this did not turn out to be the case suggests there is some kind of a split in the leadership of the Egyptian Army, between the anti-Mubarak factions leaking his departure and the pro-Mubarak factions helping him to stay.

The words of Mubarak and Suleiman directed to the democracy demonstrators could not have been more insulting: “Trust us. We’ll take over the reform agenda now. You all can go back home, get back to work and stop letting those foreign satellite TV networks — i.e., Al Jazeera — get you so riled up. Also, don’t let that Obama guy dictate to us proud Egyptians what to do.”

This narrative is totally out of touch with the reality of this democracy uprising in Tahrir Square, which is all about the self-empowerment of a long-repressed people no longer willing to be afraid, no longer willing to be deprived of their freedom, and no longer willing to be humiliated by their own leaders, who told them for 30 years that they were not ready for democracy. Indeed, the Egyptian democracy movement is everything that Hosni Mubarak says it is not: homegrown, indefatigable and authentically Egyptian. Future historians will write about the large historical forces that created this movement, but it is the small stories you encounter in Tahrir Square that show why it is unstoppable.

I spent part of the morning in the square watching and photographing a group of young Egyptian students wearing plastic gloves taking garbage in both hands and neatly scooping it into black plastic bags to keep the area clean. This touched me in particular because more than once in this column I have quoted the aphorism that “in the history of the world no one has ever washed a rented car.” I used it to make the point that no one has ever washed a rented country either — and for the last century Arabs have just been renting their countries from kings, dictators and colonial powers. So, they had no desire to wash them.

Well, Egyptians have stopped renting, at least in Tahrir Square, where a sign hung Thursday said: “Tahrir — the only free place in Egypt.” So I went up to one of these young kids on garbage duty — Karim Turki, 23, who worked in a skin-care shop — and asked him: “Why did you volunteer for this?” He couldn’t get the words out in broken English fast enough: “This is my earth. This is my country. This is my home. I will clean all Egypt when Mubarak will go out.” Ownership is a beautiful thing.

As I was leaving the garbage pile, I ran into three rather prosperous-looking men who wanted to talk. One of them, Ahmed Awn, 31, explained that he was financially comfortable and even stood to lose if the turmoil here continued, but he wanted to join in for reasons so much more important than money. Before this uprising, he said, “I was not proud to tell people I was an Egyptian. Today, with what’s been done here” in Tahrir Square, “I can proudly say again I am an Egyptian.”

Humiliation is the single most powerful human emotion, and overcoming it is the second most powerful human emotion. That is such a big part of what is playing out here.

Finally, crossing the Nile bridge away from the square, I was stopped by a well-dressed Egyptian man — a Times reader — who worked in Saudi Arabia. He was with his wife and two young sons. He told me that he came to Cairo Thursday to take his two sons to see, hear, feel and touch Tahrir Square. “I want it seared in their memory,” he told me. It seemed to be his way of ensuring that this autocracy never returns. These are the people whom Mubarak is accusing of being stirred up entirely by foreigners. In truth, the Tahrir movement is one of the most authentic, most human, quests for dignity and freedom that I have ever seen.

But rather than bowing to that, retiring gracefully and turning over the presidency either to the army or some kind presidency council made up of respected figures to oversee the transition to democracy, Mubarak seems determined to hang on in a way that, at best, will slow down Egypt’s evolution to democracy and, at worst, take a grass-roots, broad-based Egyptian nonviolent democracy movement and send it into a rage.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 10:05 pm
wow. spellbinding night.

Joe(see you tomorrow)Night
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 10:09 pm
Military Caught Between Mubarak and Protesters
By SCOTT SHANE and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: February 10, 2011

The standoff between the protest leaders and Mr. Mubarak, hours before major demonstrations set for Friday, could pose a new dilemma for military commanders. Mr. Suleiman called for an end to demonstrations, and Human Rights Watch said this week that some military units had been involved in detaining and abusing protesters. But by most accounts, army units deployed in Cairo and other cities have shown little appetite for using force to clear the streets.

Early Friday, Mohamed ElBaradei, an opposition leader and the former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, posted a message on Twitter saying: “Egypt will explode. Army must save the country now.”

Andrew McGregor of the Jamestown Foundation, a Washington research center, said that the military was caught between Mr. Mubarak and the protesters, and that it was hard to predict how officers might react. “For the first time, I think there’s the possibility of a split in the military,” said Mr. McGregor, author of “A Military History of Modern Egypt.” More
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 10:10 pm
@Joe Nation,
When the citizens are willing to die for their country, and they have now claimed Egypt "their" country, it doesn't matter what Mubarak says any more. They will continue to demand the ouster of Mubarak until he leaves; people from other countries will come and support their good fight for democracy and freedom.

Mubarak is living in a different world; he's a sick man. At 84, he should readily hand over the country to the people who wish to make it their own.

Mubarak's legacy is already in shambles.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2011 10:21 pm
From Al Jazeera

5:52am Thousands of protesters have moved overnight into the sensitive presidential palace, in the upscale neighbourhood of Heliopolis in central Cairo.

In addition to Tahrir Square, pro-democracy protests have already blocked access to the parliament building near the Liberation Square




"moved into"??? I think they must mean on to.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 12:54 am
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Forget the Saudis with their offer to fill the financial void if U.S. aid is cut off.
Given that the Saudis are just as bad as these regimes people are now overthrowing, I wonder what the Saudis' motive is ? Smile
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 12:57 am
@Ionus,
To keep the current regime in power, obviously.
They have certain things in common.

0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 06:24 am
Major Media Miss:

Muslim Brotherhood's Stated Goal Has Long Been 'To Seize U.S.'

rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 06:31 am
@H2O MAN,

That's my goal too, "to sieze the U.S.".
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 06:32 am
@rosborne979,


You will need the help of plainoldfool, cyclotroll, JT, Cimposter and the rest of A2Ks misguided misfits.

Best of luck.
electronicmail
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 06:39 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:


That's my goal too, "to sieze the U.S.".

The bros are ahead of you if they can spell it in English. They usually speak Arabic last I heard. I'm sick and tired of the US being the dog wagging Israel's tail and I'm gonna start a thread about it.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2011 07:02 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:
You will need the help of plainoldfool, cyclotroll, JT, Cimposter and the rest of A2Ks misguided misfits.

Best of luck.

Thanks. I have to get some breakfast first, but I'll get right on it after that.
 

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