@Finn dAbuzz,
It is difficult to image Mr Gibson being even vaguely romantic.
@engineer,
Would be pretty extraordinary. Kind of like being present during the American Revolution or something.
@JPB,
I've lived with this impression for many years, and I don't remember how long. US media are spokespeople for our government, and can't be trusted. Freedom of the press is bogus.
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:Can't rely on the book or movie to necessarily provide an accurate historical account of the actual events, but they did do a fine job of portraying the inherent complexity and duplicity in these affairs.
Ironic, Finn, that
you choose the words
complexity and
duplicity. Certainly we can always rely on you to provide an accurate take on these complex issues. You never play favorites, you always give a accurate picture of all the players involved.
Quote:
THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:
part II
CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC
by John Stockwell
Then you have the `Public Safety Program.' I have to take just a minute on this one because it's a very important principle involved that we must understand, if we're to understand ourselves and the world that we live in. In this one, the CIA was working with policeforces throughout Latin America for about 26 years, teaching them how to wrap up subversive networks by capturing someone and interrogating them, torturing them, and then getting names and arresting the others and going from there. Now, this was such a brutal and such a bloody operation, that Amnesty International began to complain and publish reports. Then there were United Nations hearings. Then eventually our Congress was forced to yield to international pressure and investigate it, and they found the horror that was being done, and by law they forced it to stop. You can read these reports -- the Amnesty International findings, and our own Congressional hearings.
These things kill people. 800,000 in Indonesia alone according to CIA's estimate, 12,000 in Nicaragua, 10,000 in the Angolan operation that I was sitting on in Washington, managing the task force. They add up. We'll never know how many people have been killed in them. Obviously a lot. Obviously at least a million. 800,000 in Indonesia alone. Undoubtedly the minimum figure has to be 3 million. Then you add in a million people killed in Korea, 2 million people killed in the Vietnam war, and you're obviously getting into gross millions of people...
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html
Quote:
THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:
part I
CIA COVERT OPERATIONS IN CENTRAL AMERICA, CIA MANIPULATION OF THE PRESS, CIA EXPERIMENTATION ON THE U.S. PUBLIC
by John Stockwell
We're talking about 10 to 20 thousand covert actions [the CIA has performed since 1961]. What I found was that lots and lots of people have been killed in these things.... Some of them are very, very bloody.
The Indonesian covert action of 1965, reported by Ralph McGehee, who was in that area division, and had documents on his desk, in his custody about that operation. He said that one of the documents concluded that this was a model operation that should be copied elsewhere in the world. Not only did it eliminate the effective communist party (Indonesian communist party), it also eliminated the entire segment of the population that tended to support the communist party - the ethnic Chinese, Indonesian Chinese. And the CIA's report put the number of dead at 800,000 killed. And that was one covert action. We're talking about 1 to 3 million people killed in these things.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html
5:51pm GMT: Hossam El-Hamalawy, a journalist and blogger who has closely followed labour activism in Egypt for several years, has told Jack Shenker that today was a significant day for the pro-democracy struggle because the "working class has officially entered the battle":
History has shown us that the industrial working class are normally last social class to join a revolt, and yet their intervention is usually the most crucial. We saw that in Iran, and in Tunisia; when the working-class enter the arena with mass strikes, that's when the regime is finished. Today the working-class has officially entered the battle. Over the past few weeks, since the start of the uprising, the workers have been taking part in the protests but as demonstrators only, not as part of the organised labour movement. They were engaging in independent actions. But now the mass strikes are starting, and we're seeing workers raise not only demands related to their economic rights, but also overtly political demands, and that changes everything.
9:03GMT +2pm It looks like Ahmed Aboul Ghiet, Egypt's foreign minister, has been making the media rounds.
He told al-Arabiya network on Wednesday that the Egyptian army could step in to protect "protect the country from an attempt by some adventurers to take power."
And in an interview with American public broadcaster PBS, the Ghiet said that he was "infuriated" by the US's initial response to the unrest in the country, and that he found the Obama administration's advice on political transition "not at all" helpful.
8:39pm GMT+2 Citing medics as sources, theAFP news agency now reports that at least five have been killed in Wadi al-Jadid after police fired live rounds into a crowd of proteststers.
Al Jazeera live blog
@JPB,
More on Ghiet's statements
6:40pm GMT: After vice president Suleiman's ominous talk about "a coup" being the only alternative to dialogue (see 8am), the country's foreign minister has said the army could step in to protect national security if "adventurers" try to take power, Reuters reports. Ahmed Aboul Gheit told al-Arabiya:
We must preserve the constitution even if it is amended, because that will protect the country from an attempt by some adventurers to take power and supervise the transition process. We would find the armed forces forced to defend the constitution and Egyptian national security ... and we would find ourselves in an extremely serious situation.
~~~ This is in direct contrast to what is being said by the protesters in the square. They state that there is no constitution that they accept and that any amendments to the constitution will keep the regime in power.
It looks like Washington and Mubarak's regime are further and further apart.
7:07pm GMT: More from the Egyptian foreign minister is being flashed up on Reuters. Ahmed Aboul Gheit has reportedly said that he is "amazed" by US vice president Joe Biden's call for an immediate end to emergency law, as the government needs more time to stabilise the country. Abdoul Gheit also said the US advice on political change was "not at all helpful".
The quotes come from an interview with the PBS NewsHour programme.
7:29pm GMT: The Obama administration has said Egypt's government must do more to meet the demands of protesters in the country's streets, Reuters reports. White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said:
What you see happening on the streets of Cairo is not all that surprising when you see the lack of steps that their government has taken to meet their concerns.
but, but, but.... who released the prisoners?
7:36pm GMT: Reuters also has more on Egyptian foreign minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit's riposte to Joe Biden (see 7.07pm)
Asked why he found Biden's demands for "immediate, irreversible progress unhelpful", Aboul Gheit told PBS:
Because when you speak about prompt, immediate, now - as if you are imposing on a great country like Egypt, a great friend that has always maintained the best of relationship with the United States, you are imposing your will on him.
He also said he was astounded Biden had called for ending the emergency law:
When I read it this morning I was really amazed because because right now, as we speak, we have 17,000 prisoners loose in the streets out of jails that have been destroyed. How can you ask me to sort of disband that emergency law while I'm in difficulty? Give me time, allow me to have control to stabilise the nation, to stabilise the state and then we would look into the issue.
7:10pm GMT: Here's another significant line from the interview Wael Ghonim gave to CNN today. He said the time to negotiate is over:
This is no longer the time to negotiate, unfortunately. We went on the streets on the 25th and we wanted to negotiate, we wanted to talk to our government, we were knocking on the door. They decided to negotiate with us at night, with rubber bullets, with police sticks, with water hoses, with tear gas, and with arresting about 500 people. Thanks, we got the message. Now, when we escalated this and it became really big, they started listening to us.
@JPB,
Quote:Now, when we escalated this and it became really big, they started listening to us.
Hopefully they remember what happened at Tiananmen Square...
@hawkeye10,
Egypt is far from being China.
Somehow I don't think this is going to have a big influence on the street.
8:10 pmGMT: Good afternoon from Washington DC, where the Obama administration's messages to the Egyptian government remain frustratingly oblique. But one explanation comes in this Associated Press analysis of the pressures on the US:
Moderate Arab countries such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia have warned Washington that an abrupt departure of Hosni Mubarak – the key demand of Egyptian anti-government protesters – could strengthen militants and destabilize US-backed regimes in the region.
The latest flurry of diplomatic contacts, including dozens of phone conversations between Jordan's King Abdullah II and top US officials, signal growing tensions between the Obama administration and its regional allies since the outbreak of the Egyptian uprising.
Interesting that the Saudi government is classed here as "moderate". Anyway, more details from AP:
Jordan's king told President Barack Obama, US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and other US officials that there "must be a quiet and peaceful transition of power in Egypt," a Jordanian official said.
The monarch argued that Egypt's Vice President Omar Suleiman should be allowed to introduce needed reforms before Mubarak's term ends in September, the official said. "We've communicated our message very clearly and we believe that it got through," he added.
Others, like oil powerhouses Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, also cautioned the U.S. that a hasty departure by Mubarak could undermine US interests, said a senior Arab diplomat based in Jordan. Like the Jordanian official, he insisted on anonymity, citing private diplomatic conversations with U.S. officials.
Earlier this week, the crown prince of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, told Obama that the United Arab Emirates is eager to see a smooth transition in Egypt, in line with constitutional requirements.
@JPB,
Quote:said a senior Arab diplomat based in Jordan. Like the Jordanian official, he insisted on anonymity, citing private diplomatic conversations with U.S. officials.
Just a sec, I'll check on WikiLeaks to see who he/she is.
9:10pm GMT: The talks between the Egyptian regime and opposition figures are on the brink of collapse, according to a new report from Cairo just posted on the Guardian's site:
A prominent member of a key opposition group, the Council of Wise Men, said negotiations had "essentially come to an end". A western diplomat said Washington was alarmed by the lack of political progress and the Egyptian vice-president Omar Suleiman's warning of a coup if the opposition refused to accept the government's terms.
Diaa Rashwan, of the Council of Wise Men, said he offered Suleiman a compromise in which Mubarak would have remained president but with his powers transferred to a transitional government.
Rashwan said this proposal was rejected at the weekend and there had been no further movement.
"The regime is taking a hard line and so negotiations have essentially come to an end," he said. "Suleiman's comments about there being a danger of a coup were shocking to all of us – it was a betrayal of the spirit of negotiations, and is unacceptable.
"The regime's strategy has been just to play for time and stall with negotiations. They don't really want to talk to anyone. At the start of this week they were convinced that the protests were going to fade away."
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:Egypt is far from being China.
the question of the day is "how different is the Egyptian military from the Chinese military??"....I dont think that we know the answer. We could throw in comparisons to the Iranian Military as well, or have you already forgotten that they were used just months ago to stamp out a fairly well developed rebellion in Iran??
