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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:28 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Tell me, what would you see as the motive for foreign aid which goes largely in supporting the military & military investment?


A paid for, brokered agreement between Egypt and Isreal. It's also why (imo) the US has thrown its support behind Suleiman. Israel is familiar with Suleiman and they see him as the best way to keep the status quo.

It's going to be interesting to watch how the USG tries to walk the tightrope it has put itself on -- supporting Suleiman because he's been our "friend" when we needed a bad guy to do our dirty work and because Israel wants him to head up the next regime vs realizing (even from his own comments) that he's not taking orders from anyone, including the USG and the protesters in Egypt.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:36 am
protests are expanding out into other areas of Egypt. Live fire conflict with police resulting in two confirmed dead.

2:25pm GMT: The pro-government Ahram Online onfirms two people were killed in the south west area of Al-Wadi al-Jadi after protesters set a police station and prison on fire.

So far, the clashes between police and demonstrators have resulted in two deaths and 35 injuries with some of the casualties taken by ambulance to the Assiut University hospital. Those killed have been named as Mustafa Said Bilal and Kitan Abdel Rahman Khadr.

The confrontations continue with intensity, fueled by the police's use of live ammunition against the demonstrators.

The demonstrations are the first large ones against the regime in the normally quiet governorate, 500 km south of Cairo.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:52 am
from Al Jazeera

4:14pm GMT+2: The AP news agency reports that protesters are responding angrily to Suleiman's statement on Tuesday, in which the vice presidnet said that continued protests would not be tolerated and would trigger a "coup" :

'He is threatening to impose martial law, which means everybody in the square will be smashed,' said Abdul-Rahman Samir, a spokesman for a coalition of the five main youth groups behind protests in Cairo's Tahrir Square. 'But what would he do with the rest of the 70 million Egyptians who will follow us afterward.'
Suleiman is creating 'a disastrous scenario,' Samir said. 'We are striking and we will protest and we will not negotiate until Mubarak steps down. Whoever wants to threaten us, then let them do so.'
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 09:12 am
This is an interesting perspective on why the west is scrambling to get a consistent and acceptable message.

Quote:
A greater threat than al-Qa'eda

As this dynamic of nonviolent resistance against entrenched regime violence plays out, it is worth noting that so far, Osama bin Laden and his Egyptian deputy, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, have had little - if anything - of substance to say about the revolution in Egypt. What they've failed to ignite with an ideology of a return to a mythical and pure beginning - and a strategy of human bombs, IEDs, and planes turned into missiles - a disciplined, forward-thinking yet amorphous group of young activists and their more experienced comrades, "secular" and "religious" together (to the extent these terms are even relevant anymore), have succeeded in setting a fire with a universal discourse of freedom, democracy and human values - and a strategy of increasingly calibrated chaos aimed at uprooting one of the world's longest serving dictators.

As one chant in Egypt put it succinctly, playing on the longstanding chants of Islamists that "Islam is the solution", with protesters shouting: "Tunisia is the solution."

For those who don't understand why President Obama and his European allies are having such a hard time siding with Egypt's forces of democracy, the reason is that the amalgam of social and political forces behind the revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt today - and who knows where tomorrow - actually constitute a far greater threat to the "global system" al-Qa'eda has pledged to destroy than the jihadis roaming the badlands of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Yemen

Mad as hell

Whether Islamist or secularist, any government of "of the people" will turn against the neoliberal economic policies that have enriched regional elites while forcing half or more of the population to live below the $2 per day poverty line. They will refuse to follow the US or Europe's lead in the war on terror if it means the continued large scale presence of foreign troops on the region's soil. They will no longer turn a blind eye, or even support, Israel's occupation and siege across the Occupied Palestinian territories. They will most likely shirk from spending a huge percentage of their national income on bloated militaries and weapons systems that serve to enrich western defence companies and prop up autocratic governments, rather than bringing stability and peace to their countries - and the region as a whole.

They will seek, as China, India and other emerging powers have done, to move the centre of global economic gravity towards their region, whose educated and cheap work forces will further challenge the more expensive but equally stressed workforces of Europe and the United States.

In short, if the revolutions of 2011 succeed, they will force the creation of a very different regional and world system than the one that has dominated the global political economy for decades, especially since the fall of communism.

This system could bring the peace and relative equality that has so long been missing globally - but it will do so in good measure by further eroding the position of the United States and other "developed" or "mature" economies. More.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 09:35 am
5:10pm GMT+2: Reuters reports that the Egytian army is "beefing up security" on the road leading up to the presidential palace in Cairo.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 09:52 am
Comparing Egypt and Indonesia
Johnathan Head: BBC News

Quote:
Thirteen years ago I watched another ageing autocrat suddenly challenged by a protest movement that seemed to come out of nowhere. The country was Indonesia, like Egypt a mainly Muslim nation and a strategic US ally.

President Suharto was then 76 years old. He had been in power for more than three decades, was praised for bringing stability and economic development to Indonesia, but was also strongly criticised for the repression and corruption that characterised his rule.

Like Hosni Mubarak, Suharto was a former military commander who relied on the army and an elaborate network of security agencies to buttress his hold on power.

By early 1998 he was already in trouble. The financial meltdown that started in Thailand had hit Indonesia hard. The currency had collapsed, living standards were plunging and Suharto had been forced to accept a humiliating bailout from the IMF.

There was plenty of public anger, but there was no organised opposition.

Like Mr Mubarak, President Suharto held elections carefully manipulated to ensure his own party always won.

Opponents were intimidated, bought off or jailed. So no-one saw any threat to his rule - mostly we imagined a chaotic succession scenario after his death, with his unpopular children vying to take his place. More at BBC News
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:10 am
@JPB,
Why are you using all these foreign news sources, JPB? What's wrong with Fox and other US media sources. This borders on, on on ... treason!
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:15 am
@JTT,
I discovered long ago that much of the US media reporting of international events are cut and paste dribble from AP and Reuters news feeds. There is some independent reporting, but mostly on American news items. Here's one from CNN. Wael Ghonim gave an exclusive interview to Christiane Amanpour today.

Quote:
Egyptian Google executive Wael Ghonim is "ready to die" to bring change to Egypt, he said Wednesday.

In an exclusive interview with CNN, Ghonim also said it is "no longer the time to negotiate" with the regime of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

"There's a lot of blood now" that has been spilled, he said.

Ghonim played a key role in organizing the protests that have convulsed Egypt for more than two weeks. He was the administrator of a Facebook page that is widely credited with calling the first protest January 25.

He was released recently after being detained for a week and a half.

Ghonim appealed to top officials in the Egyptian government, saying "If you are true Egyptians, if you are heroic Egyptians, it's time to step down."

Human Rights Watch said Tuesday the number of people killed in the Egyptian protests has reached 302 -- 232 in Cairo, 52 in Alexandria and 18 in Suez.

Ghonim has been treated as a hero since his release. A crowd of thousands cheered him when he spoke recently at Tahrir Square, where hundreds of thousands of protesters have demanded change for the last 16 days.

As he walked down the streets of his upscale neighborhood Wednesday, clutching a laptop, passersby recognized him and ran up to kiss him on the cheek and embrace him. A taxi driver stopped his car in traffic, got out and hugged the 30-year-old executive. Another driver handed a cell phone to Ghonim and asked him to say a few words to his daughter.

Yet Ghonim said he is uncomfortable about being the face of the popular uprising in Egypt.

"This is not about me," he said several times during an hour-long and emotional interview in a relative's Cairo apartment..

He conceded that President Hosni Mubarak has "sacrificed a lot" for Egypt but said the 82-year-old leader represents a system that needs to be replaced. He demanded that Mubarak's ruling National Democratic Party be immediately dissolved. He also said, though, that Mubarak should be treated with dignity.Source
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:15 am
@JPB,
Great link JPB (even though it's from the Guardian Wink )

This article details some of the reasons why nearly spontaneous, popular uprisings have such uncertain futures.

The interim president is going to rule by decree. This is a move made by autocrats around the world.

Why this move was made is understandable but no one can be certain that it won't lead to problems.

The standard response is likely to be: Better that this fellow rules by decree than anyone in the RCD, because he can be, reasonably, trusted to relinquish this power after elections. Maybe, but what if it is perceived that candidates with RCD origins win the upcoming elections?

How can that outcome be prevented? Adopt a mistaken tactic employed in Iraq: Abolish the RCD and prohibit any former member from running for election or serving in the government.

If 20% of the population of Tunisia are card carrying members of the RCD, then it's likely that something like 95% of the people keeping Tunisian trains running, water flowing, and garbage being picked up are RCD members.

Understandably the reform movement is having a difficult time organizing politically. If they are able to coalesce sufficiently to win the elections, will they be able to govern the country without technocrats who became members of the RCD so that they could hold a government job?

Quote:
After a people's revolution with no leader or political figurehead in a country where opposition parties were weakened by the dictatorship, Tunisian intellectuals said elections would be a challenge. The few political opposition parties are hurriedly moving to set up regional bases and begin political meetings.


This is not a simple task and it's highly likely that the alliances formed by disparate political groups in the movement to depose the Tunisian dictator, will fray when the opportunity arises to gain power and chart the future of Tunisia.

It would be very hard to argue that for the people of Tunisia, this dicey situation is not highly preferable to continued rule by a dictator, but they have a log hard slog ahead of them, and it's going to be messy and probably bloody.

Hopefully, wise and effective leaders will come to the fore, because without them I don't see how this movement will be successful.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:18 am
@JPB,
I probably needn't mention that my tongue was embedded firmly in my cheek.

Oh and a good morning to Finn dPrevaricator.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:19 am
@JTT,
What I've found interesting (and fascinating) is that whatever pre-conceived notions I held about Al Jazeera were totally bogus. As with most animus or bias, it was based on ignorance and blind acceptance of what I'd been spoon fed by my native media sources. It seems I'm not alone. Al Jazeera reports a 2500% increase in it's web feed traffic since the start of the Egyptian uprising, with 60% of that increase coming from the US.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:19 am
@msolga,
You've not heard that theory before because it is nutty.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:22 am
@JPB,
Al Jeezera is amoung the top 3 new organizations for me. I read it every day, I appreciate it's "fair and balanced coverage". I know they continue to lobby for the coverage in the US, after repeatly being denied, hopefully it will happen sooner than later.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:24 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
There was another section of the Tunesia article that I thought applied to the situation in Egypt and points in favor of those who are saying that Mubarak needs to stay in power while constitutional changes are made that allow for a smooth transition. Some of the downside of a quick exit are:

Quote:
The social-democrat, centre-left PDPD party, seen as the strongest opposition movement, supports the interim government as a key step to free and fair elections. The party's secretary general, Maya Jribi, said she had major concerns about the political climate.

"First, the government is being seen as hesitating and vacillating, for example it provoked outrage over its appointment of regional governors linked to the old regime. By dithering and going back on decisions, it sends out a negative message to public opinion that it's not being rigorous enough in rooting out the old regime. The government needs to send a message that it is open to civil society and not just fall back on the closed circle of the old RCD party.

"Second, we're concerned by the vestiges of the old Ben Ali regime, which are resisting and staging their own counter-revolution to stir up violence, particularly in provincial towns.

"And finally, there is a real impatience on the part of the Tunisian people post-revolution. They want everything at once, and that is legitimate and understandable. They haven't had the associations or institutions to organise themselves so they are demonstrating and putting on political pressure in a non-organised way. We're travelling around the regions holding political meetings urging people to form associations and groups and fight the political battle that way."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:31 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You don't think that Saddam had plenty on the USA, Finn.

Off to another good day of deception. Maybe we should all chip in and get you a subscription to Al Jazeera.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:51 am
4:21pm GMT:The April 6 Youth movement has sent a defiant reply in response to vice-president Omar Suleiman's warning that the protests were "very dangerous" and the only alternative to dialogue was "a coup" (see 8am). In an email sent to followers of its Facebook page it says:

The methods of Omar Soleiman in dealing with the protesters has become unacceptable and as Egyptians won't accept anything but justice now.

The statements made by Omar Soleiman, that he won't tolerate the presence of the protesters any more, and that he would not tolerate the continuation of such events, is a clear threat to the protesters in Tahrir Square, and we do not accept his threat, on the contrary, the demonstrators will continue and will not stop until we overthrow this tyrant regime.

At the same time, we find that the Egyptian regime has arrested Egyptian participants in the protests, and activists and bloggers and we did not find them till now.

Today, we reaffirm our rejection of ... this comic speech, made by Omar Soleiman and some cartoon parties who do not represent us, in an attempt to deceive the Egyptian people, without trying to meet the demands of the protesters in Tahrir Square and the demands of all Egyptians all over Egypt.

The protesters including the April 6 youth insist that this regime must leave immediately.

The blood of martyrs shed in the field of liberalization in many requires us to reject this comic speech, which Omar Soliman and the President released.

We refuse any negotiations until Mubarak and his regime leaves.

Our rights and demands which have not been implemented, and the blood of our martyrs are not negotiable.

April 6 Youth
Egyptian resistance movement
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 10:55 am
Labor strikes to expand. This was one of the things that VP Suleiman said would not be tolerated.

4:50pm GMT:pm: Al Masry Al Youm reports that 3,000 Egyptian national railways (ENR) employees have gone on strike with some sitting on rail lines to stop trains getting through, and bus drivers will start a strike tomorrow that will lead to the suspension of services
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 11:20 am
All this makes me wonder what the news feeds might have been like during our own revolution 235 years ago. Were there fears of a 'Christian' takeover and a church sponsored govt? Or a dictator in George Washington. Many think he could have become king if that was his wish, but he wanted nothing to do with it.

What if there had been the capabilities that exist today for outside countries to exert influence the way they do now?

What Egypt needs is their own Thomas Jefferson, and the ability for him (or her) to bring about democratic change.

The world has gotten smaller and I'm not sure that can happen any longer.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 11:22 am
@JPB,
And before Suharto was Sukarno who led a popular revolt against the Dutch and then his country from democracy to autocracy.

It's probably too facile to compare the Indonesian Communist Party the PKI, to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, but there are some similarities.

When the PKI moved on Sukarno they were in a much stronger position than the MB is today. After Suharto took power, the PKI was crushed the way Mubarak crushed the MB.

Whether or not you subscribe to the notion that the PKI was simply another would be autocratic regime, there were certainly sincere democratic reformers among the uprising against Sukarno who ended up getting caught between the PKI and the Indonesian military.

Once the recent events in North Africa broke out, I was reminded of the novel The Year of Living Dangerously by Christopher Koch. An excellent movie of the same name was made in the early 80's and starred the very young Mel Gibson and Sigourney Weaver, and a tremendous performance by Linda Hunt as the male dwarf photographer, Billy Kwan. (I think she won an Oscar for the role).

There was a romantic subplot involving Gibson and Weaver, but there was certainly nothing romantic about the uprising which some contend Suharto either staged or incited in order to wrest power from Sukarno.

Can't rely on the book or movie to necessarily provide an accurate historical account of the actual events, but they did do a fine job of portraying the inherent complexity and duplicity in these affairs.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 11:30 am
@IRFRANK,
What would be interesting is if the protesters in Egypt started a constitutional congress right there in the square. Start drafting a constitution right in public and see where it goes. Right now, everyone wants a government change but no one knows what comes next. If they draft up a constitution, then they make a specific statement about what comes next and that gives everyone a chance to see what change might look like.
 

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