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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 12:44 am
@msolga,
I am thinking that we are getting close to the point where no one picks up the phone when America calls.....
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:00 am
@hawkeye10,
I would imagine if the US suddenly announced it would withdraw its hefty annual aid package to Egypt in the future, there would not be enough folk in Washington to answer all the calls, hawkeye. Wink

It is simply nonsense to assert that the massive amount of US aid (which mostly supports the military & military spending) has naught influence over this government ... which is controlled by the military.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:11 am
@msolga,
Quote:
It is simply nonsense to assert that the massive amount of US aid (which mostly supports the military & military spending) has naught influence over this government ... which is run by the military


All of our money paid over the years worked wonders when the Iranian Military during Feb 1979 had to choose between Ayatollah Khomeini and the Shah....
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:20 am
@hawkeye10,
Well if this aid has so little influence on the Egyptian leadership, then why doesn't the US simply withdraw it? Perhaps the US has made a bad (& very expensive) investment? Perhaps these funds could be better used to alleviate hardship at home?
It certainly has had next to no impact on improving the lives of ordinarily Egyptians. It has been largely military aid. Everyone knows that.

Tell me, what would you see as the motive for foreign aid which goes largely in supporting the military & military investment?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:22 am
@JTT,
Quote:
Gob was just trying out a new echo chamber, MsO. His other one was allowing the truth to leak in. That level of discomfort was simply too much for him.
This is from someone who hysterically screeches an anti-USA stance to a degree that would embarrass Al Qauda .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:24 am
@JTT,
Quote:
See what I mean, Hawkeye.
Newsflash dickless - no-one sees what you see...you are imagining more than there is...
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:30 am
@JTT,
Quote:
I don't cover up war crimes.
Yet you bring no charges to bear...why is that if you are not covering them up ?

Quote:
I don't suck up to people just to further my career.
A propagandist for North Korea is hardly a career.

Quote:
don't work for an outfit that has a long history of mass murder.
Yes, you do. The anti-USA lobby has a long history of mass murder.

Quote:
I don't accept medals for being part of illegal invasions.
You wouldn't be acceptable to the military. You wouldn't pass the psyche exam. Psychotics like you are best left smoking **** and criticising, leave the doing to others.

Would you rather they kept the entire soldier alive in living hell like your buddies in North Korea ?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:31 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Well if this aid has so little influence on the Egyptian leadership, then why doesn't the US simply withdraw it?
The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Mubarak knows a lot of stuff that would embarrass the US Government, so they would rather not piss him off if they can avoid it..

I firmly believe that there are some Americans in high places, or previously in high places, who hope to hell that Mubarak gets murdered in his bed in the middle of the night by rouge elements of the Egyptian military..
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:38 am
@hawkeye10,
Could you expand on that statement, hawkeye?
Are you calling continued US "aid" to Egypt protection money? ... or something along those lines?
Like a bribe, to stop the Egyptian leadership from telling what it knows about US government involvement in the region?
I've not heard that theory before.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 01:46 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Could you expand on that statement, hawkeye?
Are you calling continued US "aid" to Egypt protection money? ... or something along those lines?
Like a bribe, to stop the Egyptian leadership from telling what it knows about US government involvement in the region?
I've not heard that theory before.
That is the theory that makes the most sense that I have heard. Remember that Mubarak has had rather close ties with Israel as well, and Israel knows just about everything about America because they work closely with us and spy on us as well. Mubarak is in a position where we must assume that he knows most of the dirt about America's dealings in both the mid East and Africa, that if he decided he wanted to inflame regional and Islamic hostility towards America he most likely has stuff filed away in his brain to do it with. Ditto with Europe, and you know that the Europeans have been pushing more money towards Egypt than America does, only they do it in trade and "investment" not aid, which Mubarak and his cronies take a hefty skim of.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 02:03 am
@hawkeye10,
It sounds like you are saying that Mubarak is blackmailing the US to maintain its level of aid to Egypt. And that US credibility might suffer as a result of what he might reveal.

As I said, I haven't heard that theory before.

Personally I can't see that there would be any benefit for him & his cronies in "inflaming regional and Islamic hostility towards America".
I'd imagine that he would suffer as much loss of credibility from any such "exposures" as the US would.

But anyway ...

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 02:07 am
@msolga,
Quote:
It sounds like you are saying that Mubarak is blackmailing the US to maintain its level of aid to Egypt
there would be no blackmail, there would be Obama and Senate leadership saying to themselves "pissing Mubarak off by ending a measly $1.3 billion a year in aid is not worth the risk".
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 02:36 am
@hawkeye10,
OK, I have to leave in a minute, so this will have to be my last post for now ...

I just googled "why does the US not suspend aid to Egypt?" & this article is one of the responses I received.

I don't know that this is a satisfactory answer at all: so the US can continue to "work behind the scenes" to exert its influence to try to bring about change in Egypt, according to this article .....

(But how would replacing Mubarak with Suleiman (if that is seen as the US preferred solution) improve matters?

How would that meet the requirements of the anti-government protesters?):


Quote:
Egypt protests: US resists calls to cut military aid
Ewen MacAskill in Washington
guardian.co.uk, Friday 4 February 2011 18.49 GMT


White House says suspension of $1.3bn in annual aid to Egypt would undermine push towards a post-Mubarak system

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/1/1296594363097/Hosni-Mubarak-and-Barack--005.jpg
Hosni Mubarak with Barack Obama in 2009. The White House sees Egypt's military as the key to removing its beleaguered president. Photograph: Jim Young/Reuters

The Obama administration today resisted calls to cut its massive military aid to Egypt and is instead working behind the scenes with the commanders of the country's armed forces on how to oust President Hosni Mubarak.

The White House sees the Egyptian military as the key to removing Mubarak, regarded as a necessary first step towards implementing substantive political and economic reforms. Cutting aid would risk alienating them.

The US defence secretary, Robert Gates, the chair of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, and other senior Pentagon figures have been in regular contact with their Egyptian counterparts all week.

Mullen, in an interview with ABC television today, said the US should wait to see what happens next before suspending aid, which amounts to more than $1.3bn (£800m) a year.

"There is a lot of uncertainty out there and I would just caution against doing anything until we really understand what's going on," he said. "I recognise that [$1.3bn] certainly is a significant investment, but it's an investment that has paid off for a long, long time."

The US and Egyptian armies are closely intertwined, not just through military aid but joint training and exercises.

The US would suspend aid immediately if the military was to crackdown on peaceful protesters in the way of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard in 2009 and the Chinese military in 1989.

Mullen said he had been in contact with his counterpart in Egypt, who assured him the miliary would remain neutral and not fire on the protesters.

Haim Malka, deputy director of Washington's Centre for Strategic and International Studies, said suspending aid would be a mistake. "The United States's ability to influence that system is already limited. Freezing military aid now undermines what leverage the US government does have to promote a post-Mubarak system that is more than just a reconfiguration of the status quo," he said.

The Pentagon press spokesman, Geoff Morrell, said Gates had spoken with the Egyptian defence minister, Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, three times this week. Tantawi visited Tahrir Square today to talk with anti-government protesters, signalling that the military would not participate in a crackdown.

Mullen has been in contact with Lieutenant-General Sami Enan, a national hero in Egypt. Under one of the options being discussed between the US and the Egyptian military, Enan would lead the transitional process along with the new vice-president, Omar Suleiman, the former head of intelligence who is close to the military, as well as Tantawi.

The US vice-president, Joe Biden, spoke with Suleiman yesterday.

The White House has been criticised throughout the week for failing to call unambiguously for Mubarak to go immediately. But the administration does not want to alienate pro-American leaders in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the region with an unseemly rush to dump a long-time ally. It also does not want to be seen as interfering in Egyptian domestic politics and fears humiliating Mubarak would be counterproductive to efforts to push him towards the exit.

The Obama administration is keen for him to leave as soon as possible so the reform process can get under way that will hopefully lead to free and fair elections.

"The president has said that now is the time to begin a peaceful, orderly and meaningful transition, with credible, inclusive negotiations," a White House spokesman, Tommy Vietor, said. "We have discussed with the Egyptians a variety of different ways to move that process forward, but all of those decisions must be made by the Egyptian people."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/04/egypt-protests-us-military-aid
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 07:44 am
From the Guardian

8:36am GMT: The Egyptian newspaper, Youm7, has images and reports of violence overnight in the town of Al-Wadi al-Jadid in the south-west. It says 100 people have been injured including eight seriously.

Scott Lucas, an academic from the University of Birmingham, writing on the blog Enduring America has anunconfirmed report of a "massacre" taking place in the area. It names one man reported to have been killed.

The police cut off the electricity and water about 2-3 hours ago. They fired live bullets at the protesters. After brutally beating the protesters, the police were forced to retreat. While retreating they set a gas station on fire. The protesters successfully put out the fire using buckets full of sand.

The protesters set the NDP HQ, Governorate building, and the police station on fire (the police station is unconfirmed). The police arrested a lot of youth randomly and took them to an unknown destination. Also the police set a lot of convicts from the Wadi Prison free to scare the people,keeping only political detainees. The latest news was that the convicts are set to attack the museum, and the protesters are preparing Molotovs for defense. Mohammed Hassan Belal, a 20-year-old protester, is the first confirmed death.

embedded links found here.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 07:46 am
9:07am GMT: Omar Suleiman's veiled warnings of a coup are being greeted with a mixture of fear and derision, Chris McGreal reports from Cairo.


An Egyptian regime imposed by military coup is considered by some to be laughable, but they might want to listen to elements of the opposition who are more concerned about this.

On the extension of the protests to the parliament building, Chris said:

So far those protesters [outside parliament] have been left alone, although they have been told not to go into the parliament building, and one of them, who was hanging signs on the railings, was forced to take them down. The protesters now feel they have extended the range of their control beyond the [Tahrir] square. If the military tried to clear them that might well set off a confrontation.

A number of strikes have started, including telecommunication and Suez canal workers, Chris reports.

Although it is dressed up as about pay, it is also being interpreted as a demonstration of support from outside the capital for the protests against Mubarak. It was notable that at the demonstration yesterday, which was the biggest so far, there were quite a number of people who worked for state who would have been fearful of attending demonstrations a week ago.

There will be degree of reassessment [today]. The opposition is deciding how it can best keep the momentum of these protests and even extend them. They want to take it to a second stage and reach out to other Egyptians who maybe more ambivalent at the moment.

The government, as you can see from Suleiman's statement, is clearly in a form of disarray. It doesn't really know what to do. It thought that by beginning the dialogue it could take the sting out of the protests, but the size and scale of the demonstrations plus the sheer variety of people attending yesterday, shows it hasn't at all.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 07:52 am
Quick notes: There are many tweets describing labor strikes throughout Cairo, ostensibly over wages but thought to be mostly in support of the protesters.

Also, Reuters has a story about sentiments outside of Cairo and the other large cities

11:30am GMT: Media attention has focused on the dramatic events in Cairo, but Reuters has this interesting piece on what is happening in the countryside where more 57% of the population live. If the regime is counting on support from the silent majority, it may be disabused if the report is anything to go by.

Beyond Tahrir Square, beyond the boundaries of the sprawling capital, beyond even the provincial cities where protesters joined the call to topple President Hosni Mubarak, rural Egypt is restless for change.

Scraping a meagre living from the land, farmers and rural workers in Egypt's agricultural heartland have watched the largely urban uprising that has shaken the ruling system and many back the web-savvy youths who galvanised the nation. A few have turned up in Cairo in their galabiyas, the robes worn in the fields, although most are too busy trying to feed their families. But many believe it is time for a new era, even if some think Mubarak should stay on a few months more.

"The revolution is good ... It will give us stability but the protest should stop and the president should be allowed to stay until the end of his term," said farmer Fawzi Abdel Wahab, working a field near the Nile Delta city of Tanta.

"If the president doesn't do as he promised, Tahrir Square is still there and the youth will not die, they can go back," he said, his wife and daughter nodding in agreement.
The protesters want Mubarak to quit now. Mubarak has said he will step down at the end of his term in September.

The protests may have begun with an educated youth and liberal, urban elite, but a tour of the Nile Delta suggests discontent is more widespread. Mubarak's government needs to do more than meet the aspirations of the middle class.

"The ideas the youths called for in their revolution express those of all Egyptian people, including farmers and residents of rural areas who, like the rest of Egyptians in big cities, face the same needs and suffering," said analyst Nabil Abdel Fattah.[/quote]
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 07:55 am
Uh oh...

12:20pm GMT: The Interior Ministry has been sending some interesting and ominous-sounding text messages to CNN's Ben Wedeman, he reports on Twitter.

SMS frm #Egypt Interior Ministry: "From today our dealings with you will be with honesty, trust and lawfulness." Unbelievable. #Tahrir

Another Interior Ministry SMS: "Police have returned to streets to protect citizens and their security. Please cooperate with them" #Egypt
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:02 am
2:00 pm GMT: Egyptian blogger Mohammed Maree claims a soldier has been shot by a pro-Mubarak supporter in Mahalla. If true, it will be interesting to see how that affects the dynamic of the relationship between those two groups.
Live blog: Twitter

@mar3e

I,m informed now from a private sources that one of the Army solider in mahalla have been injured by a live bullet from one of the NDP thug
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:15 am
2:08pm GMT: Al-Jazeera reports that the Egyptian government has agreed to amend six articles of the constitution immediately. Evan Hill has tweeted the details of the articles in question. They include the respective articles that restrict who can run for president and allow for unlimited presidential terms.

# Article 189: 1/3rd of parliament must approve to propose const. amendments, 1/2 to pass, if it fails, cannot be reconsidered for a year. less than 20 seconds ago via HootSuite

# Article 179: Amended recently, allows president to refer terrorism/national security charges to military courts/bypass certain protections. 2 minutes ago via HootSuite

# Article 93: Allows lower house of parliament to boot its own members out, subject to court ruling. 4 minutes ago via HootSuite

# Article 88: Amended recently, took electoral supervision completely out of judges' hands, essentially put it under control of ruling party. 5 minutes ago via HootSuite

# Article 77: Sets presidential term limits of six years and allows for unlimited terms. 6 minutes ago via HootSuite

# Article 76: Sets restrictions on who can run for president. Must be a member of approved political party with representation in parliament. 7 minutes ago via HootSuite
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2011 08:24 am
@msolga,
Before yesterday, I didn't know a thing about Suleiman, but I assume, those in Washington surely are aware of him, so it does make you wonder why they thought he would be an acceptable person to the protesters to lead the transitional government.

It is not really the brotherhood who might as emerge as a threat as I have read that they want a secular government and have denounced violence. But just having a vacuum in the government in that part of the world, could be dangerous. Although this started as a protest by educated youths (from what i read) Al Qaeda and other Muslim extremist would seek to influence how the government is set up and they already doing so.



Al Qaeda in Iraq calls Egypt protesters to wage jihad

However, since the protesters are not about that and since they have taken other means other than jihad to protest their government thus far, I don't think they would accept that sort of ideology in their government anyway. They seem too westernized so to speak to want to trade one form of oppression for another. (Not that there is anything wrong Islam, just forced religion from government is what I am talking about.)

The following is pretty encouraging I think in dispelling the "it is either Mubarak or Islamics" thinking.

Egyptians cool towards Muslim Brotherhood
0 Replies
 
 

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