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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 03:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In addition to being the top Google marketing executive in the Middle East, Ghonim is an internet activist who had been critical of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak in the days leading up to the violence that has paralyzed Egypt.

Ghonim hadn’t been heard from since January 27th, the night before protesters held what they called a “Day of Rage” filled with violent clashes between police and protesters.

Since his disappearance, Ghonim has become a symbol to internet activists who have struggled to overcome internet and cell-phone blackouts, which have accompanied widespread media repression, including violent attacks against journalists that have left at least one reporter dead.

Ghonim, described by The Journal as a father of two who is in his 30s, is thought to be the anonymous activist who created the Facebook page that first called for the Jan. 25 protest that sparked the uprising, according to The New York Times.

Ghonim has also been a volunteer for the pro-democracy campaign of Mohammed ElBaradei, the former head of the International Atomic Energy Angency, who has returned to Egypt to oppose Mubarak.

Ghonim — who tweets @ghonim — posted the following ominous message on Twitter before he disappeared: “Pray for Egypt. Very worried as it seems that government is planning a war crime tomorrow against people. We are all ready to die.” Source


I posted the charges against him a few pages back.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 03:10 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
This, the following, despite all the posturing, is the mindset of a lot of westerners. It is, again despite all the posturing, the official unspoken policy of the US government. The fact situation illustrates that there is no other rational way to view it.
Your comment quoted in this post pairs nicely with Dowd saying that the first response of Obama when faced with a popular uprising in Egypt demanding democracy was frantic phone calls to Europe seeking a way of stopping it.....

You are a bit of nut, but on this you made the right call....
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 03:41 pm
Social evolution in egypt?
Do you find this statement to be true?
Disobedience in the eyes of anyone who has read history, Is man's original virtue.
It is through disobedience and rebellion that progress has been made.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifdlUDwW6Mc
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
... along similar lines.

This writer argues that "there is no such thing as an ethical foreign policy" & that our governments' past "interventions" in the middle east have been misguided at best, say nothing of disastrous for the very people they were supposed to "help". And that we should stay out of Egypt & allow the Egyptians to determine their own own fate .

This Simon Jenkins piece was published in the Guardian's "comment is free" section & the lively discussion which followed received around 200 contributions from Guardian's readers. :

Quote:

The west's itch to meddle is no help. Leave Egypt alone
Simon Jenkins
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 1 February 2011 20.07 GMT


Our sole contribution to Muslim states wrestling with self-determination is plunging their neighbours into bloodbath and chaos

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/1/1296589737202/Anti-government-protester-007.jpg
Anti-government protesters demonstrate near a damaged picture of Gamal Mubarak in Alexandria Protesters demonstrate near a torn picture of Gamal Mubarak, son of Hosni Mubarak, in Alexandria on January 25. Photograph: Reuters

We are hypocrites. We cheer on the brave Tunisians and Egyptians as they assert the revolutionary power of the street. Hands off, we cry. Let them do it their way. It has taken a long time, but let the people get the credit and be strengthened thereby.

We gave no such licence to the Iraqis or Afghans. We presumed it was our job to dictate how they should be governed. We accused their leaders of crimes and decided to punish them all, massacring thousands. We declared a "freedom agenda", and bombed them to bits.

Hosni Mubarak of Egypt is another Saddam Hussein, a secular dictator ruling a Muslim country with a rod of iron through a kleptocracy of cronies. Less wealthy than Saddam, he had to rely on American support, but he was only a little more subtle in his ruthlessness.

We are told that there were sound strategic reasons for supporting Mubarak – as there once were for supporting the Ba'athists, Assad of Syria and Saddam himself. There were similar reasons for backing the Ben Ali dynasty in Tunisia and "Britain's good friend", the outrageous Colonel Gaddafi of Libya. All offered a supposed bulwark against Muslim extremism, a monster of which Americans and Britons are told to show a pathological, all-consuming and costly terror. Now, apparently, that no longer applies to Egypt.

In reality there is no such thing as an ethical foreign policy. There is something philosophical called ethics and something pragmatic called foreign policy. The art of diplomacy lies in navigating between them. The Blair-Bush "crusade for democracy" failed to do so. It was motivated by the most dangerous thing in politics, religious fervour.

What is happening in Egypt is plainly exhilarating to any lover of civil liberty. So too was Georgia's rose revolution, Ukraine's orange revolution, Burma's saffron revolution, Iran's green revolution and Tunisia's jasmine revolution. Few people scanning the pastel shades of designer Trotskyism will remember which were successful and which not, but they made great television.

In each of these cases people burst out in visceral opposition to dictatorship. Driven beyond endurance, they took the last option available to autonomous individuals and marched down the street. The outcome depended on the security and self-confidence of the regime and its command of the army. It rarely depended on the approval or assistance of outsiders. Indeed the most effective weapon deployed against an uprising in a moment of national crisis is to call it a tool of foreign interests. This was certainly the case in Iran.

To western eyes, watching revolutions is re-enacting our own democratic origins. They remind us, sometimes smugly, that much of the world has yet to find the path to free elections, free speech and freedom of assembly. But they are also the political equivalents of earthquake or flood. Surely these people need our advice, our aid, at least our running commentary. The itch to intervene becomes irresistible.

Britain, with a history of ineptitude in handling Egypt, offered its pennyworth at the weekend. The Foreign Office said: "We don't want to see Egypt fall into the hands of extremists … We want an orderly transition to free and fair elections, and a greater freedom and democracy in Egypt."

Who cares what Britain "wants" in Egypt? Egypt is not Britain's responsibility any more, insofar as it ever was.

The US is in an equally absurd position. Having intervened for three decades, backing Mubarak with $1.5bn a year for armed forces alone, Washington has slithered from declaring him a "force for stability in the region" to "demanding an orderly transition of power". The message to all allies is that an American friend in need is a friend who will vanish at the first sign of trouble.

America could intervene, as Bush and Donald Rumsfeld might have done, with Blair cooing along behind. They could have told Mubarak to reform his regime but hang in there. Since Washington regards the Middle East as a powder keg about to explode in its backyard, it should not allow the Muslim Brotherhood to run Egypt. Bush would have told Egypt to get the "bad guys" off the street. What are tanks for? Why are those F-16s buzzing round the sky? Drop bombs like American and British pilots did on Serbs, Iraqis and Afghans. Retain control or the mad mullahs will be at all our throats. Western security is too important to be left to the mob.

Alternatively Washington might intervene on the other side. It might argue that Mubarak has shot his bolt and "engineer regime change". Don't rely on rioters, half of them probably extremists. America could remove Mubarak as it removed Mullah Omar and Saddam Hussein, by force. Give Cairo a dose of the shock and awe. This is the policy supported elsewhere by Democrats and Republicans, Labour and Conservatives, that the west had a right and a duty to ordain regime change in Muslim countries. What was good for Afghans and Iraqis must be good for Egyptians – and perhaps even Iranians and Pakistanis.

Such interventions would be mad. Had the west not intervened in Iraq and Afghanistan, I bet the Iraqi people would by now have found a way to be rid of Saddam. They or the army would have done what the Tunisians and the Egyptians are doing, and at far less cost in lives, upheaval and chaos. As for the Taliban, as clients of Islamabad they would have come to Pakistani heel. The Afghans would be a threat to nobody but themselves.

What history will call the Wars of 9/11 have killed immeasurably more people than did 9/11 itself. They have cost western taxpayers billions that would have gone far to relieving global disease and famine. American and British governments, for reasons embedded in some imperial paranoia, grotesquely exaggerated the threat posed to them by the Muslim world. They embarked on a campaign of intervention, regime change and nation building far from their shores. The campaign has been inept and counterproductive, as well as in breach of the United Nations charter on self-determination.

Egypt, Tunisia, Iran and Pakistan are all Muslim states wrestling with agonies of self-determination. The west's sole contribution has been to plunge two of their neighbours, Iraq and Afghanistan, into a bloodbath of insecurity and chaos. This is not our continent, these are not our countries and none of this is our business. We should leave them alone


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/01/west-itch-meddle-leave-egypt-alone
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:12 pm
@msolga,
All these facts about how our country seems to support tyrannical leaders against the people is news that should have been available long before now. Our government's choices to support these leaders with billions of our tax money is a crime against untold millions of people who we have suppressed from changing their governments for their own benefit.

And we're talking about both parties who have misled everybody about the reasons why they influence foreign governments - for the interest of US security. What hogwash!
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
And we're talking about both parties who have misled everybody about the reasons why they influence foreign governments - for the interest of US security. What hogwash!

So besides corporate sponsorship what is the purpose.....stretching of the ego? PR?
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:16 pm
@msolga,
This is what I tried to say earlier, but he's written it far more eloquently. Thanks for sharing this..

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
I wouldn't be able to second guess this one - no matter how hard I try. Maybe, you have ideas on the reasons why we've supported these tyrants?
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Control of Oil and buying peace for Israel.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This may shed some light on the problem!

David Icke - The Control System is Clever not Wise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v2BqqGKRHY&feature=related
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:30 pm
10:17pm GMT: Germany's Spiegel Online reports on talk of a German spa town as a possible venue for Hosni Mubarak to spend his remaining years in retirement:

The United States government's scenario for an end to the political chaos in Egypt appears to be this: President Hosni Mubarak travels to Germany for a "prolonged health check" that would offer the 82-year-old a dignified departure. Over the weekend, the New York Times reported that secret talks to that effect were being held between the US government and Egyptian military officials.

According to information obtained by Spiegel Online, plans for a possible hospital stay in Germany are far more concrete than had been assumed so far. Talks are already being held with suitable hospitals, particularly with the Max-Grundig-Klinik Bühlerhöhe in the southwestern town of Bühl near Baden-Baden, Spiegel Online has learned from sources close to the clinic. The hospital management declined to comment.

German politicians seem open to the possibility of a Mubarak "retirement" in the country, at least the ones quoted by Spiegel Online:

"We need a peaceful transition in Egypt. If Germany can make a constructive contribution in an international framework, we should receive Hosni Mubarak – if he wants that," said Andreas Schockenhoff, a senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party.

Elke Hof, security policy spokeswoman for the business-friendly Free Democratic Party, the junior coalition partner to the CDU, said: "I would welcome an early departure by Mubarak if this can contribute to stabilizing the situation in Egypt.

(Hat-tip to Reuters ace blogger Felix Salmon) Source
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:36 pm
@Ceili,
The readers' comments are very interesting, too, Ceili.
Worth reading.

I was thinking, as I read that piece (& which some of us have argued on this thread earlier) ... imagine if all those billions of dollars had not been spent on military equipment & armies, to prop up yet another "convenient dictator" .... if instead that money had been spent on alleviating the poverty & misery of the people of Egypt, Afghanistan, Tunisia, etc, etc, etc ... imagine what a real difference those billions would have made to the lives of those people.
Apart from anything else, people would not have needed to take to the streets to demand a better deal from their governments. How can all those billions of dollars be justified when so many ordinary Egyptians have had to survive on less than $2 a day?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 04:39 pm
@msolga,
Yes I like your thinking
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:00 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
if instead that money had been spent on alleviating the poverty & misery of the people of Egypt, Afghanistan, Tunisia, etc, etc, etc
Because the outcome has been so astounding when it has been tried throughout the whole of Africa, and Haiti...People have to want to do the work required, giving away what we have in place of their hard work is not going to solve anything long term.

The Egyptians seem nice enough folk, but they are the remnants of a dead civilization (Egyptian) and part of a deeply dysfunctional culture (Islamic) ...and they are conservative through and through. In Murbarak and his predecessors they got roughly the leadership that they wanted. The young have different ideas, to a point, how different we do not yet know.

I am not going to shed a tear for Egypt tyvm..
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:02 pm
Quote:
On his Twitter feed, Sultan Al Qassemi, a columnist for The National, an Abu Dhabi newspaper, just provided a long summary of remarks made by Wael Ghonim, a blogger and activist, in an emotional interview on Egypt's Dream TV. Mr. Ghonim was released on Monday, 12 days after he was snatched from the street for his role in using the Internet to build momentum for the protests.

Here is Mr. Qassemi's Twitter summary of the interview:

Wael @Ghonim to Dream TV: I tricked my employer so I can attend the protests in Egypt. I am not a traitor. I don't need anything from anyone....

I am not a hero. I only used the keyboard, the real heroes are the ones on the ground. Those I can't name. This is the season where people use the word traitor against each other. I wasn't abused, I was jailed, kidnapped.

I met some really intellectual people in jail, they actually thought that we were traitors, working for others

If I was a traitor I would have stayed by the swimming pool in my house in the U.A.E. What are called the "Facebook youth" went out in their tens of thousands on January 25th, talk to them. This is the era where people who have good intentions are considered traitors.

My wife was going to divorce me because I didn't spend time with her, and now they call me a traitor. I spent all my time on computer working for my country. I wasn't optimistic on the 25th but now I can't believe it.

Thanks to everyone who tried to get me out of jail....

I kept thinking "are people thinking of me?" I was wondering if my family knew where I was, my wife, dad, mother.

I am proud of what I did. This is not the time to settle scores. Although I have people I want to settle scores with myself. This is not the time to split the pie and enforce ideologies.

The secret to the success of the Facebook page was use of surveys.

I met with the Minister of Interior today. He was sat like any other citizen. He spoke to me like an equal. I respected that. The youth on the streets made Dr Hossam Badrawi (General Secretary of NDP) drive me to my house today....

They transferred me to state security, it's a kidnapping. On Thursday night, at 1 a.m. I was with a friend, a colleague from work. I was taking a taxi, suddenly four people surrounded the car, I yelled "Help me, Help me." I was blindfolded then taken away.

I will say this as it is: nothing justifies kidnapping, you can arrest me by the law, I am not a drug dealer or terrorist.

Inside I met people who loved Egypt [state security people) but their methods and mine are not the same. I pay these guys' salaries from my taxes, I have the right to ask the ministers where my money is going, this is our country. I believe that if things get better those [good state security people he met] will serve Egypt well.

Don't stand in our way, we are going to serve Egypt. I saw a film director get slapped, they told him "You will die here." Why?


Continues Here
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:09 pm
@JTT,
Ease up on the feelings of importance you get .....you know, when you are the only one who can see the solution to the worlds problems. I am surprised you havent found a way to blame the USA for gravity...after all, gravity takes ice cream away from kids.

How are your love beads going ? Still going to physio for the neck strain ? I hope you will be available for the next orgy (sorry...love-in)......you make the other hippies look well washed.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye, I think it's the height of arrogance for you or I, or anyone else, to assert what the Egyptians "want". We are not in their shoes.
But I think we can safely assume that the poorest Egyptians, of which there are quite a few, would prefer to have full stomachs, would prefer to struggle much less to survive & would prefer to live their lives with less oppression. Political affiliations probably mean naught to people whose lives are as desperate as this, it doesn't matter where they live.
And whether you "shed a tear" about their circumstances, or not, is neither here nor there ....
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:32 pm
@msolga,
Imagine if we'd never given them a dime. Imagine if we'd only done business or trade and left these people to their own devices. Propping up dictators has caused a world of misery. Why is it we in the west think we know better than the citizens of these countries? Democracy is great for us, but only good for them if we back it up with bombs and violence.....? I keep going back to South America, at one time it was mostly run by dictators, backed by western interests, and now are mostly democracies. I believe people can self govern themselves and don't need big brother to tell them how to do it.
I hope one day that these nations can forgive us and we can learn to deal with whoever they choose.
I remember reading years ago about the GOOD WORK the muslim brotherhood did. They gave bank loans to people and businesses most of these regimes would not. They set up schools and hospitals/health care and provided security against corrupt police/army.
I'm not saying these guys are the optimal organization or choice, but they seem to care about the common man (not discounting the lack of female support.)
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Hard to imagine you dont have an opinion on why the US has supported hardliners like Mubarak.

It's hardly the case that our leaders have been guided by the principles upon which the nation was founded, but that's real politik for you.

Sometimes I confuse you with parados or Cyclo, but I'm fairly sure you have very little use for neo-cons, which is somewhat ironic because they're not too fond of real politik either.

Why do Democratic and Republican presidents support hardliners?

Stability.

Mubarak has contributed to stability in the region for three decades.

Imagine if an Islamic theocracy had seized power after Sadat was assassinated. Do you think the peace treaty with Israel would have endured?

Unfortunately we don't get to play out different scenarios in a laboratory of alternate universes. We will never know if an early US rejection of Mubarak would have led to less or more violence and suffering than we have seen.

Bush was probably the least real politikal US president in decades and he was vilified for it. His critics considered him either a naive simpleton or a sinister
liar.

There is a reason such ideologically disparate presidents as Reagan and Obama took a real politik approach.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 05:52 pm
@Ceili,
Quote:
Imagine if we'd never given them a dime. Imagine if we'd only done business or trade and left these people to their own devices. Propping up dictators has caused a world of misery
Doing business with an oppressive regime has the same effect as aid, as the oppressors take there skim, and it is usually large. At the end of the day we cant choose for them, the most we can do is invade and take out their oppressor and make ourselves the occupying force, and that has it own set of problems and does not change that they need to both choose and impose their choice.
0 Replies
 
 

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