Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

I disagree. I wasn't talking about doing business with governments, although they can tax like crazy. Strictly business dealing with other businesses. Does (for example) Ford or Toyota need government intervention here? why do they need it there?
Americans are always on about smaller government, less intervention, why can't it work in other countries too?
Do companies really need governments to be the middle men? Laws are necessary but direct involvement???

The USA was founded on two obvious principles.....free trade and expansionism.

The Telegraph in the UK tonight reports that the state-controlled newspaper Ah-Ahram in Egypt abandoned it position of "slavish support for the regime." It is unclear what to read into this, but the front page editorial from one of Egypt's oldest newspapers urged the government to recognize the ambitions of the young.

This quote,

"We gave no such licence to the Iraqis or Afghans. We presumed it was our job to dictate how they should be governed. We accused their leaders of crimes and decided to punish them all, massacring thousands. We declared a "freedom agenda", and bombed them to bits.",

[The west's itch to meddle is no help. Leave Egypt alone
Simon Jenkins - from MsOlga post one page back]

multiplied by a hundred show that you don't have a clue of what you speak, or you do know and you are content to lie, which is much much worse.

The only thing that is off in the above quote is the numbers; it's not "thousands massacred", it's hundreds of thousands massacred. Clearly there have been war crimes of massive proportions committed by the US, UK and others, and you, Hawk, spew lies to help cover those war crimes.

The dictatorships started by Juan Peron in Argentina, Guetillio Vargas in Brazil and Strossner in Paraguay (all of which continued in various forms for many decades) were entirely home grown affairs, as were the current regimes in Nicaragua, Cuba and Venesuela. Certainly the U.S. was involved in Nicaragua through the middle of the last century and Cuba & Guatemala before that. However the observable fact is that the vast majority of the dictatorships of Latin America, including those of 18th & 19th century Mexico were almost entirely of their own making. I believe most of the hand-wringing about the supposed baleful influence of the U.S. (and Canada) in this area is seriously misplaced, or at least exaggerated. The underlying political & economic problems of Latin America are just that - Latin American problems. It is also true that most of our attempts to "help" in various countries ranging from Nicaragua to Haiti have been ineffective and sometiomes have merely replaced one form of exploitation with another. There may be a lesson here for us all in considering the situation in Egypt.

The aid we provide to Egypt was a direct and necessary consequence of the peace treaty concluded between Israel & Egypt (and brokered by the U.S.) following the 1973 war and at least three prior wars since 1948. It was necessary to provide Egypt with enough military parity with Israel to make a cessation of hostilities possible. Not a perfect situation by any means, but certainly better than the one that preceeded it.

I'll agree that U.S. support for Israel has been far too unquestioning and unqualified. They must eventually make a mutually beneficial peace with their neighbors. Unfortunately they have hidden behind the U.S. shield and exploited the continuing hostilities to expand their territory while pushing out the Palestinian residents. Here it is worth remembering that the exodus of European Jews to Palestine after WWII was a direct consequence of the Holocaust and the unwillingness of most Europeans to take back their own surviving displaced (and disenfranchised) Jews. After the destruction of WWII and the redrawing of borders associated with it the Europeans in turn had some pretty awful problems of their own to deal with. Evil begets evil ...

In short there is a whole lot more involved in the problem in Egypt today (including failures which originated among the Egyptians themselves) than merely western aid and trade. Indeed these are at most reletively very minor contributors to their current problems.

We are starting to sound a little like John Lennon, Ceili.


Yes, I do too.
Especially when the "benefits" of our interventions have caused such misery & hardships for the ordinary people of the countries we've intervened in. What exactly are the benefits for most Afghan people of our propping up Karzai's corrupt government, how have their lives improved? How can so many of Egypt's people be so desperately poor when their president is a millionaire, many times over? I remember, during the Vietnam war, there was much talk about ways to win "the hearts & minds of the people". (As opposed to bombing & napalming them into submission. ) You'd think our leaders would have learned from that experience, but apparently not. I just think it's completely misguided to believe we can "bring democracy" to various impoverished middle eastern countries by our recent interventions, while leaving the ordinary people out of the equation.

Yes, I was just recently reading about the Muslim Brotherhood and this sort of activity with the people. You'd imagine that would have won them more friends than enemies amongst the people they assisted, wouldn't you? Interesting that they've been banned for for so long, yet are now allowed to be included in Suleiman's committee to find solutions to the current mess.

You regularly spew this vomit all over these pages but you are nothing but a liar of monstrous proportions, Gob.

History of U.S. Interventions in Latin America
http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/interventions.html



Let's look at this one BIG LIE. Why have you "forgotten" to mention Reagan's support of the Contras and the slaughter of 40 to 50 thousand Nicaraguans that occurred, yes, during the Reagan era.

You know full well about this yet you choose to mislead other by willfully lying.

There's really not much more that can be said about a piece of scum like you, Gob, that you don't illustrate here on these pages all by your lonesome.

You method is to be taller by pulling others down, but the truth is no-one will ever be littler than you no matter how hard you try. Only you can save the world and no-one is listening. Must be terrible to be so important and so insignificant. In your own mind.

See what happens when an ex-grunt tries to put a rarely used brain back into use.

Do you still make a pretense that you are a "Writer"?

So you were in the military ? Your knowledge is first hand no doubt.

Yes. Do you still have no occupation ? Isnt smelling bad and ranting about the draft an occupation like it was in the 60's ?

I'm glad to see that you've stopped making claims to be a writer. Wise decision.

I'm wondering if it might be their attitude towards women. For instance, they'd never consider that a woman could one day be president in Egypt - according to the by-laws on their website, "The only public office which it is agreed upon that a woman cannot occupy is the presidency or head of state."

But then they make it pretty clear that there are actually very few positions in public office in which women might be allowed to participate.

Then there's a bunch of nonsense about how it's Western society that's led to stripping Muslim women of their morality and chastity and stuff. I think it's called Brotherhood for a reason...as in, no sistahs allowed. (Or, if they're allowed, they have to be very quiet and respectful of their betters).

always the charmer you! and this was in response to a compliment...

JTT is a one trick pony and, I suspect, a reincarnation of the Abuzz miscreant Marburg.

On and on and on he drones about how evil America has and continues to be.

But he's a heroic miscreant. He's devoted his life to the most serious of challenges: Insulting each and every A2K member who can't swallow his bullshit.

What an inspiration he is.

I'm sure that the Egyptians who are putting their lives on the line to secure democratic reforms are strengthened in mind and spirit knowing that JTT and Endymion are here to put the rest of us in our place.

I wouldn't be surprised if, after Mubarak is overthrown, they rename Tahrir Square JTT Plaza and the Gaza Pyramids, the Edifice of Endymion.

What a couple of feckless fools.

Cynic

Forget the compliments, Hawk, coming from you, they couldn't mean much. Try addressing the issue. You try to make this an Obama thing as if he's the only president who has left innocents hanging. That has been the raison d'etre for every president since at least Eisenhower.

They simply don't give a damn about anyone save for the business interests of the USA. Again, the historical record, so voluminous, proves it, but you go off on these fanciful tangents without laying blame squarely where it belongs.

This isn't an Obama problem though he is part of it. US presidents just can't be anything but war criminals.

I wonder if anyone has been sent to Egypt, or other favored CIA countries for "discussions" since Obama came to power.

For a person who is on your 'ignore' list, you sure are obsessed with me, Finn. [Prone as you are to fabrications, this may well be just another Finn lie.]



You're wrong about pretty much everything, Finn. Chalk up two more.



That's not me. That's the historical record that points up just how "evil America has [sic] and continues to be".

Idiots like you and Ionus [and sadly Lash and even Art] like to make out that it's me. That's dishonesty on a monumental scale. But hey, that's nothing new for you.

Serious question....is there ANYONE at A2K that you either like or respect?

No, I still do....and pretenses too by the way, which is your first question you have forgotten about. 60's were good for you werent they ?

You would make a good dictator....of the world...there would be no human problems...just vindictiveness, hate and spite...oh and everyone in the USA and several other countries would be executed for war crimes.....but apart from that, complete peace.....just you, the Taliban, Al Quada, the IRA, the PLO, Nazis, in fact anyone who was ever the victim of USA aggression.

I take that leaves out no-one.....