53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:40 am
@msolga,
Quote:
3.31pm: The Daily News Egypt is reporting on Twitter that, not only is Gamal Mubarak not going to stand for president in September, but he has also resigned from the ruling National Democratic Party.

Vice President Omar Suliman: Gamal Mubarak resigned from the ruling National Democratic Party #jan25 #fb
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:43 am
@msolga,
I guess that's an important announcement... Rolling Eyes

That's sure to send all the demonstrators back to their homes.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:47 am
@georgeob1,
The quote you cited, George:
"I find it ironic that many foreigners criticize us for our past failures to influence the internal governance of Egypt in one breath, and in the next fault us (as you have done) for our presumed arrogance in thinking we can direct the affairs of others."

That damn if you do, damned if you don't. It's a bit impossible to take criticism seriously when it's criticism du jour - based on whatever is wrong in the world at the moment. If they'd all get together and decide which they believe, I'd appreciate it.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:52 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
It's an update.

Rolling Eyes to you, too!

Wink
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:55 am
Wow! Big day yesterday. Back to listening and watching with interest.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:56 am
Quote:
1450: Shahira Amin, was until yesterday a journalist with the state-run Egyptian channel, Nile TV. She told the BBC World Service that she had to leave her job because she no longer felt able to report the state view when what she saw on the street was so different: "We were basically showing the pro-Mubarak rallies all day long, as if that was the only thing that was happening. I couldn't show what was happening here in Tahrir. I couldn't even report the figures as they were. So no thank you. I feel liberated."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:57 am
Quote:
3.50pm: The Egyptian health ministry has updated its toll of the number of casualties from the violence in Cairo over the past two days. It now says 13 people have been killed and 1,200 have been injured
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:04 am
@JTT,
JTT - This is an example of you contorting, trying to change someone's words to give you an opening to spew a bunch of criticism on the US.

Georgeob1 said he didn't recall anyone on the thread suggesting that the US should or would intervene in Egypt.

You completely ignored what he said and brought up history.

The fact remains that Georgeob1's post is correct and yours is irrelevent to his statement.

You go on to ask why Americans don't speak up about crimes, terrorism, etc. Because nobody prefaces every conversation they have with a litany of everything their country has done wrong in the past. Do you? This nutty rhetoric of yours has you ignored by a lot of members. I just unignored you recently, and I've been trying to make some sense with you, because the ignore feature banishes you from my universe - lol, it's sort of like killing you, and I hope you don't have to die.

Of course, as an American, I like to kill a few foreigners before breakfast...

Please rethink the content of what you post. Try to make it at least address what you are saying you're addressing. Attacking people for merely being Americans isn't as popular as it used to be. Wink
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:09 am
@msolga,
Quote:
4.00pm: Turi Munthe, the chief executive of international citizen journalism network Demotix, said one of its citizen journalists had been beaten:

Quote:
Foreign journos – and anyone with laptop or camera – are now targets. One of our guys just got smashed up.

Sounds like even anti-Mubarak protesters have given up on foreign media and assume they're not helping the cause or have their own agenda. Four al-Arabiya reporters have been attacked, possibly because the Arabiya channel is universally seen as pro-Mubarak.

On the violence: "Before every demo, we were told that the anti-Mubarak protestors searched fellow protesters for weapons. That has now fallen apart because pro-Mubarak gang got through, and it's escalated."


3.59pm: An Amnesty International representative was among those arrested in the raid on Hisham Mubarak Law Centre

Amnesty issued this statement:
Quote:
An Amnesty International representative has been detained by police in Cairo after the Hisham Mubarak Law Centre was taken over by military police this morning.

Amnesty International USA called on President Obama to immediately demand the release of the Amnesty International staff members.

The Amnesty International member of staff was taken, along with Ahmed Seif Al Islam Khaled Ali, a delegate from Human Rights Watch, and others, to an unknown location in Cairo. Amnesty International does not know their current whereabouts.

"We call for the immediate and safe release of our colleagues and others with them who should be able to monitor the human rights situation in Egypt at this crucial time without fear of harassment or detention," said Salil Shetty, secretary general of Amnesty International.

A number of other activists are still being held in the Centre, including a second Amnesty International member of staff.



3.55pm: There is a huge protest going on in Alexandria, which has not yet seen the violence that has been witnessed in the capital.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/feb/03/egypt-protests-live-updates
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:15 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

The quote you cited, George:
"I find it ironic that many foreigners criticize us for our past failures to influence the internal governance of Egypt in one breath, and in the next fault us (as you have done) for our presumed arrogance in thinking we can direct the affairs of others."

That damn if you do, damned if you don't. It's a bit impossible to take criticism seriously when it's criticism du jour - based on whatever is wrong in the world at the moment. If they'd all get together and decide which they believe, I'd appreciate it.


The relations of our country with the rest of the western world in particular changed profoundly with the fall of the USSR. We changed instantly from the favorable (or least unfavorable) alternative to the uncontrolled elephant in the room. We probably did add to it all with our bombast and proclivity for action, ... not to mention strategic errors. However, compared to the historical alternatives and precedents we have done pretty well.

Simply as an example of a related factor, consider the strange duality in the behavior of the British empire in the early 19th century as it struggled against Napoleonic authoritarianism, and, at the same time used this struggle to expand their control of European and worldwide commerce. A generation later they piously chose to abolish the African slave trade while, at the same time expanding their political imperial enslavement over Africa itself. Still later they fought a terrible war to contain the ambitions of Wilhemite Germany and at the same time used the struggle as a pretext for the destruction and conolization of the former Ottoman Empire, bequeathing us key elements of the confrontation with Islam we are contending with today.This kind of duality in human affairs is in fact common enough and these are merely examples of it. I'm sure history will find like examples in our behavior.

I suspect one of the complications here is our European friends (and their post colonial offshoots) are trying hard to forget history, in particular their own, and operate under the fantasy that they have been reborn into a new world of their own making. Their problem is that, while much of the world is new, it is not of their making and they have not been reborn .... indeed in demographic terms many (not all) of them are dying.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:20 am
Setanta-

Fortunately for me, I'm not married to any previous motivations, machinations, or policy papers - or lack of - that might have been expressed or produced by any former members of the Bush administration. It doesn't change the outcome.

My interest was that this specific scenario was used as one of the positive reasons to establish a democracy in Iraq in several of Bush's speeches. I remember wondering if Bush calculated correctly, and thinking how bold of a statement he made: Everyone will see that the people who said Arab people are incapable of operating in a democracy were wrong. Iraq's neighbors will see increased freedoms enjoyed in their region, and want it. He gave a nod to our cultural differences, and said the governments that Arabs form may not look exactly like ours, but they would be governing themselves - and freer people are more interested in pursuing self-actualization that strapping bombs to themselves and killing people.

I agreed then, and I do now.

We still don't know what the result will be. As I've said, the power that fills these new vacuums may indeed be more menacing than the old guard; however, the young people seeing a democracy take hold and work in their region has obviously made them bold to get it for themselves. As was forecasted by Bushie.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:20 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
George originally indicated that fomenting democracy in the Middle East was one of the reasons for the Iraqi invasion, and it was.


If that was the case, the US would advocate for democracy for all countries. It doesn't and it most certainly didn't in the case of Egypt. The US's record around the world tells us that the US is NOT interested in fomenting democracy. It is only interested in its national security position. The historical record also tells us that democracy and the people of various and sundry countries do not matter. We know this because the US has overthrown various and sundry democratic countries and installed brutal dictators.

How can you bright lights miss this? That's exactly what the case has been for 60 years in Egypt. How have you missed that there have been dictators in Egypt who haven't given a damn about the Egyptian people and neither has the US. You've both been content in a relationship that has been solely in the interests of the US and Israel.

Quote:
Lash indicated that what is happening in North Africa right now is an outcome contemplated by George Bush's professed strategy for the region, and it is.


That's laughable and though these notions spew from your mouth with pretty much every post, folks expect better from Lash. The actions that the US took against Iraq were war crimes. Launching an aggressive war against a country that is no threat to America is the ultimate war crime. That's an idea that was first developed and espoused by the US and the US took one of the lead roles in prosecuting countries for such a crime. Need I point out, once again, the incredible hypocrisy.

Quote:
One last comment on Iraq, of course no one can prove that without the US invasion the people of Iraq would not have risen up and overthrown Saddam, but your argument was that it was likely to have happened without the invasion. You made this argument not so much to declare your confidence in the human spirit of freedom, but of an intense desire to deny any credit at all to America.


I guess I do. Your argument is the same as one that the Germans or the Japanese could have made. America doesn't deserve credit for committing war crimes. What a monstrously ludicrous notion.



0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  6  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:21 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:

I suspect one of the complications here is our European friends (and their post colonial offshoots) are trying hard to forget history, in particular their own, and operate under the fantasy that they have been reborn into a new world of their own making. Their problem is that, while much of the world is new, it is not of their making and they have not been reborn .... indeed in demographic terms many (not all) of them are dying.


More than a little irony in this statement, fellow American. We are finding ourselves in a very similar boat these days.

Cycloptichorn
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:22 am
Quote:
4.10pm: Reuters has compiled a round-up of international reaction to the situation in Egypt:

German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle:

Quote:
I spoke to representatives of the opposition including [Mohamed] ElBaradei, and it's completely obvious that this is a matter for the political opinion makers in Egypt to decide for themselves who shapes the democratic transition and how. This requires beginning with a direct exchange of ideas, a peaceful dialogue, and we are counting on progress here today since otherwise I am afraid that - in view of Friday prayers tomorrow - there will be another escalation of the situation.


US president Barack Obama:

Quote:
We pray that the violence in Egypt will end and that the rights and aspirations of the Egyptian people will be realised and that a better day will dawn over Egypt and throughout the world.



Michael Spindelegger, Austrian foreign minister:


Quote:
I urge the Egyptian leadership not to let batons do the talking nor to block the media, but to be responsible and to deal with the demands of the demonstrators. The demonstrators and their valid demands cannot be silenced by violence. The political forces in the country must to everything to avoid a further escalation.



Greek prime minister George Papandreou:


Quote:
Egyptian people want change, democratic rights, liberties. All these need to be established, also constitutionally. It is necessary that this transition to democracy, these changes take place with credibility, stability, that they happen quickly and without violence.


International Monetary Fund (IMF) spokeswoman Caroline Atkinson:

Quote:
We just don't know yet how the economic situation will develop because it is not yet clear how the political situation will develop. There is an issue of who is in charge of what now.



EU foreign affairs chief Lady Ashton:


Quote:
I urge the Egyptian authorities to immediately take the necessary measures to ensure that the law enforcement authorities protect the demonstrators and their right to assembly freely. I have made clear that it is the responsibility of the army and law enforcement to protect its citizens. Last night we were sending messages to the Egyptian authorities in phone calls and other messages, saying: "Look, you have to get the army in to protect the people, you have to make sure that we've got ambulances able to get in and out of the square."



Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Spain - joint statement:


Quote:
We are observing a deterioration of the situation in Egypt with extreme concern. We condemn all those who use or encourage violence, which will only worsen Egypt's political crisis. Only a rapid and orderly transition towards a broadly representative government will allow Egypt to overcome the challenges that it is facing. This process of transition must start now.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/feb/03/egypt-protests-live-updates
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  7  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:27 am
@Lash,
Quote:
It doesn't change the outcome.


No, but it heavily alters the narrative you are pushing.

Quote:
My interest was that this specific scenario was used as one of the positive reasons to establish a democracy in Iraq in several of Bush's speeches.


Yes, but the reams of available evidence - and I do mean a lot - show that this wasn't the motivation for the actions Bush took there. Not even close to the motivation. It was just propaganda.

You're basically saying here in the thread, 'See! Bush's propaganda was right!' But there's not a lot of evidence that it was. You do realize that the Iraq people aren't really any more free today than they were then, right? That there are no real new freedoms or internet access or anything enjoyed by them, that would have sparked this desire for revolution. Yet these are all claims you made earlier in the thread. And statements like this:

Quote:
however, the young people seeing a democracy take hold and work in their region has obviously made them bold to get it for themselves.


Are just wrong. It's not 'obvious.' Do you know anything at all about the events that lead up to this? It had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with food shortages and unemployment.

You can make assertions all day, but without greater evidence of causality, don't expect anyone to take your argument seriously. And you know they shouldn't.

Now, please don't respond with the same bland assertions and whitewashes of history.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:33 am
@msolga,
Not be paranoid.

The Rolling Eyes wasn't intended for you.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:41 am
@Lash,
Quote:
That damn if you do, damned if you don't. It's a bit impossible to take criticism seriously when it's criticism du jour - based on whatever is wrong in the world at the moment. If they'd all get together and decide which they believe, I'd appreciate it.


The "damned if you do, damned if you don't" meme is old and worn and tired, Lash, yet you continue to trot it out as if it has some validity. The US gets blamed for one reason only, one that you've been dancing all over creation to avoid; the US has committed war crimes by launching illegal aggressive wars against Iraq and Afghanistan.

There's no defense to be had in the "we were trying to create democracy", even if it was true, which it most assuredly isn't. But again, you know this.

Why then would you attempt to propagate such a series of lies?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:42 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
No?
I thought it was because it came right after something I posted.
OK then.
(And I'm not paranoid, OK? Smile )

Good night, way past my bedtime.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:43 am
Today is when protests were supposed to start in Yemen if I'm correct. Any news on it? My googling has been dominated by Egypt. Any interesting developments there?

A
R
T
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:50 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
More than a little irony in this statement, fellow American. We are finding ourselves in a very similar boat these days.


It's China's turn to make this mistake next...

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
 

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