53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:52 am
@failures art,

Quote:

Yemen protests: 20,000 call for President Saleh to go

The demonstrators called for a change in government and rejected Mr Saleh's offer to step down in 2013 after more than 30 years in power.

Meanwhile, a similar number of his supporters rallied in a central square.

The gatherings are the largest in two weeks of protests inspired by the popular uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.


source
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:54 am
@revelette,
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/932722--tens-of-thousands-march-in-anti-government-protests-in-yemen?bn=1
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:54 am
@failures art,
It puzzles me no end, Art, why a guy who purports to be concerned about the more nefarious aspects of the US role in world affairs sits silent when all around there are folks who are so blatantly trying to rewrite history, to whitewash the crimes that were, are being perpetrated upon the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of course you're hardly the only one.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 10:58 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, You are spot on! It's about jobs and food shortages; not much else.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:00 am
@revelette,
And the translations of what the people in the street are saying are just coming in;

Thanks, George, for showing us the light!

We've found the WMDs. Our governments had them.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:01 am
Can anyone provide links to the reports detailing how the Egyptian protesters are being inspired and motivated by the democracy in Iraq.

Thanks
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  5  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:05 am
@JTT,
Okay... Normally I can at least draw from my post what you are trolling about. This time however I'm not certain what your trolling on.

I expressed interest in hearing about Yemen, why you choose this post to rail on me about what I "purport to concerned about," white washed history, or the wars seems drunkenly misplaced.

Do you have news on Yemeni protests? If not, bugger off because you're of no interest or import. Please contribute to information sharing on what is happening and put your soapbox to the side.

A
R
T
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:11 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo,

All this is in response to the original assertion that adding elements of democracy and freedom to the Mittle East and the Moslem world was part of the rhetoric and motivation for our intervention in Iraq. Your denials are both categorical and offered with only vague references to proof, but no actual proof (because there is none supporting such a broad categorical conclusion). Indeed the evidence strongly supports the observation that the rhetoric, stated policy and motivation of the Bush Administration contained (sometimes discordant) elements of both a desire for more democracy and freedom and an interest in stability. Such duality and inconsistency is the rule not the exception in human affairs. Thise who today who wring their hands about the physical and political suffering of Egyptians at the hands of an authoritarian regime and who infer that our support for a political accomodation to end a series of wars between Egypt and Israel was the cause for the present authoritarianism in Egypt appear to fail to see the existence of this duality in both the contradictions of the real world and the motives of usually well-intedned people to deal with them.

The truth is there is lots of evidence of the "freedom agands" in the policy statements of the Bush administration, particularly during his first term. This indeed was an associated element in the Iraqi intervention - your unsupported (and unprovable) categorical denials notwithstanding. (There is by the way an excellent op ed in yesterday's WSJ on this subject.)

None of this is meant to suggest there were no other elements in our policy, plan and motives. Again, complexity and contradiction in human affairs are the rule, not the exception.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:18 am
@msolga,
It was directed at Sky News which was the source of the update you posted.

OK, you're not paranoid, just mistaken. Cool
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:20 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Georgeob1 said he didn't recall anyone on the thread suggesting that the US should or would intervene in Egypt.

You completely ignored what he said and brought up history.


Well slap me silly. The historical record has nothing to do with all this.

Quote:
You go on to ask why Americans don't speak up about crimes, terrorism, etc. Because nobody prefaces every conversation they have with a litany of everything their country has done wrong in the past.


The other wasn't working so well so new tact, eh, Lash? Again you know this is specious. Considering the enormity of the crimes, a million and a half dead, it isn't getting anywhere near the attention it deserves.

You double dog dared me, the info was provided and since then, it's been the Lash Dog and Pony show. Now you're into Act 2. What's next, Lash?

Quote:
Of course, as an American, I like to kill a few foreigners before breakfast...


I don't think that the people of Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Nicaragua or Angola or El Salvador or Guatemala or ... would appreciate your attempt at humor.



revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:22 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Quote:
We still don't know what the result will be. As I've said, the power that fills these new vacuums may indeed be more menacing than the old guard; however, the young people seeing a democracy take hold and work in their region has obviously made them bold to get it for themselves. As was forecasted by Bushie.


Maybe for the sake of not rehashing, but I doubt they thought about the outcome of such a spreading of democracy through out the middle east or if they did, they seem to be having buyers remorse now. McCain called it a virus spreading across the Arab world. Bolton has been expressing disdain for democracy for some time now.

Quote:
VAN SUSTEREN: But Israel must be completely on edge because this is one of the two Arab countries that recognize them.

MCCAIN: Yes. And the other Arab country, Jordan, is — the president has just had to replace the whole government. He wouldn’t be — excuse me, the king, King Abdullah, has had to replace the whole government. This virus is spreading throughout the Middle East. The president of Yemen, as you know, just made the announcement that he wasn’t running again.

This, I would argue, is probably the most dangerous period of history in — of our entire involvement in the Middle East, at least in modern times. Israel is in danger of being surrounded by countries that are against the very existence of Israel, are governed by radical organizations.


source (the source is liberal but it has links)

Quote:
Yet during an interview with right-wing radio host Mark Levin yesterday, Bolton used his time on the show to attack and undermine the pro-democracy protest movement currently underway in Egypt. The former U.N. ambassador claimed that the “real alternative” to the Mubarak government is not “Jeffersonian democracy” but rather the opposition Muslim Brotherhood. After Levin postulated that “every Jihadi nutjob is probably pouring into Egypt right now,” Bolton followed up by saying this is the “big opportunity” for jihadists and mocked the calls of the international community to restore internet services, saying that the “Muslim Brotherhood knows how to use Twitter just like naive college students do”:

LEVIN: So what do you make with what’s going on in Egypt right now?

BOLTON: Well, I think it’s a real crisis for the regime. I think the outpourings in the street that have now been joined by the Muslim Brotherhood really do put the issue squarely on the table [...] My take is that they are digging in for a fight, they intend to resist, and that the real alternative is not Jefferson democracy versus the Mubarak regime, but that it’s the Muslim Brotherhood versus the Mubarak regime, and that has enormous implications for the U.S., for Israel, and our other friends in the region.

LEVIN: See, that’s my take on it too. I’m not aware of these spontaneous Jeffersonian democracy drives in the Arab world. Maybe I could be missing something. Mike Ledeen makes the point, I think he’s right, that every Jihadi nutjob is probably pouring into Egypt right now.

BOLTON: Oh, this is the big opportunity. That’s why so much of the Obama administration opposition to it has been feckless. [...] And the Muslim Brotherhood knows how to use Twitter just like naive college students do. So I don’t disagree. There are a lot of people in the streets who have legitimate grievances, they want more open government, so even if Mubarak were to fall, those idealistic people aren’t going to create the new government, the Brotherhood is.

source

Quote:
BOLTON: [D]emocracy and civilian governments in Pakistan have been so discredited because of incompetence and corruption. I thought the Musharraf government, military, authoritarian rule that it was, was the most likely kind of government to be able to make the changes we made. [...] I would have kept Musharraf in power. I think the Bush administration made a mistake in pushing him out. In Pakistan they call the military the “steel skeleton” because it really is the only thing that holds the country together. That offends some people who think democracy is always the answer. Personally, I would put American interests above that. I wouldn’t have gotten rid of Musharraf.


source

I think they might of thought if the Arab world had a choice they would naturally choose secular leaders or leaders friendly to our interest, it don't always work out that way. And it might not if democracy has it way in Egypt either, but democracy is the right thing in either case.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:23 am
Just listened to the VP interview. He took quite a slap at Al jazeera.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:25 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Just a little irony.

We're hardly in the same place as our European, former-imperialist friends, and thanks to our immigrating friends we're still on the plus side of the demographic equation.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:27 am
@revelette,
Quote:
I think he’s right, that every Jihadi nutjob is probably pouring into Egypt right now.


Who do you figure has more folks coming in, them or the CIA?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:30 am
@georgeob1,
The problem comes when people try and link US actions in the ME with popular revolts such as this one. There's no evidence that the two are linked. The fact that Bush and his group put out propoganda supporting Democracy in the ME as a cover for their aggressive intentions doesn't validate our actions there or give any credence at all to the idea that one led to the other.

I haven't forwarded any other argument, certainly not one regarding US involvement in Egypt and Israel. I don't disagree with you there.

I think that, given the weight of evidence surrounding the events that led to the Iraq war, that only a very credulous person would accept that we attacked them to 'promote democracy.' Or that this was even one of the top reasons for doing so. It almost beggars belief that people would make that argument, given the historical record. It's like Okie's arguments regarding Hitler - not to say that Bush was like Hitler, but to say that those who blithely accept government propaganda as evidence of their true motivations are genuinely confused about what they are talking about.

I agree that you have taken a more moderate line on this than Lash has, so I'm not trying to tar everyone with the same brush.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:31 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Just a little irony.

We're hardly in the same place as our European, former-imperialist friends, and thanks to our immigrating friends we're still on the plus side of the demographic equation.


Just more misdirection.

How many times does this have to be mentioned? This doesn't, in any way, in any fashion whatsoever, mitigate the war crimes of the US.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:31 am
@revelette,
revel, Both McCain and Bolton are showing their true colors; they don't believe in democracy. I wonder if the conservatives understand this?
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  9  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:46 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Of course, as an American, I like to kill a few foreigners before breakfast...


I don't think that the people of Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Nicaragua or Angola or El Salvador or Guatemala or ... would appreciate your attempt at humor.



I find the quote funny.
It's good when people laugh at themselves.
Reminded me of a former Mexican Finance Secretary at a dinner I went to: "You know how much I hate poor people... err... poverty".

On the contrary, your attitude reminds me of when my Cuban friend Virulo went to a conference of "cultural workers" from different Communist countries, and a North Korean delegate asked him what was his line of work.
"Humor" -replied Virulo.
"Oh" -exclaimed the North Korean, and added, proudly-: "We are past that stage" .
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:50 am
@fbaezer,
fbaezer, You are missed; don't see you as frequently. Your humor and wit on a2k adds value to this site. Please post more frequently.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:51 am
@failures art,
Come on, Art, try to be honest.

Lash, Gob and Finn are using the latest in manure spreading equipment to spread lie after lie all over this thread and instead of calling them out on their lies, you scream, "Look, look, there's China".
0 Replies
 
 

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