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Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 01:13 pm
@revelette,
The 1967 border issue doesn't mean much, because Israel will never give up most the settlements they built after 1967 on Palestinian lands. Israel also will not divide Jerusalem. They will not negotiate those away for peace.

One more thing; I'm sick and tired of hearing Obama call Israel a "democracy." He doesn't understand the term.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 01:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Or this;

Quote:
"The American people did not choose this fight. It came to our shores, and started with the senseless slaughter of our citizens.


That really conservative, in terms of numbers, list that that American professor put together on Muslim deaths versus US deaths kinda illustrates that there's more than a bit of prevarication above.

Quote:
After nearly 10 years of service, struggle, and sacrifice, we know well the costs of war.


Do you think as well as the people of Vietnam know it, or those of Iraq or Afghanistan? Did they choose to be illegally invaded?

Did they choose to be used as pawns in order that the US might hand Russia its own Vietnam?

Did they choose to have depleted uranium spread across their lands?

Did they choose to have bomblets scattered far and wide for their children to play with?

Did they choose to have agent orange spread across their lands?

Quote:
These efforts weigh on me every time I, as Commander-in-Chief, have to sign a letter to a family that has lost a loved one, or look into the eyes of a service member who's been gravely wounded.


If you had to sign a letter to the countless families that have lost loved ones because of your crimes, there would have to be thousands of US presidents.

Quote:
We will be true to the values that make us who we are.


Ah, at long last, the truth.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 09:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'm sick and tired of hearing Obama call Israel a "democracy." He doesn't understand the term.
So it is only a democracy if you approve of the result of the election ?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 09:54 pm
@JTT,
Did the people in the Twin Towers choose to be crashed into ?

Did the people of North Vietnam choose to fight a bitter illegal invasion so Ho could rule all ?

Did Afghanistan choose to be taken over by the Taliban ?

Did Israel choose to be attacked by the Arabs repeatedly ?

If you had to sign a letter of condolence to everyone of your Arab terrorist's victims we would need far more than one "JoinTalibanTerrorism" .
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2011 11:14 pm
REALPOLITIK RETURNS: WESTERN LEADERS TURN COLD ON ARAB SPRING

Analysis: Western euphoria about the popular uprisings in the Arab world is dissipating – and being replaced by fatalism. The Western powers clearly have no master plan to take the reins of the situation, and in the end, Iran may end up benefiting the most from the wave of uprisings.


Quote:
BERLIN - At the height of the giddiness over the fall of the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt, leading German politicians were putting themselves through the wringer. Too long had the West dealt with Arab despots based on the false assumption that only they could guarantee “stability” in the explosive Middle East. From now on, support of human rights and democracy had to form the basis of a values-oriented foreign policy.
Only a few months later, these views, at least as far as government parties are concerned, appear to have been erased from memory. It’s as if this spring’s revolutions, which didn’t shake up just the Arab world, had never taken place. Now, it’s all about the controversial planned sales of tanks by Germany to Saudi Arabia. That golden oldie, “realpolitik,” is back. Of course, “human rights considerations must play a role, but international security interests take priority,” says German Minister of Defense Thomas de Maizière, adding that Saudi Arabia is “one of the most important anchors of stability in the region.”
The opposition would be a good deal more credible in its indignation about the tank deal if it had also complained when the German government refused participation in the military intervention to protect Libyan revolutionaries against mass murders perpetrated by Muammar Gaddafi’s forces. Or if it kicked in full-on about the West’s ongoing inaction in the face of Syrian death and torture squads acting against its own people.
Western political elites are secretly hoping there may be some respite, just a short breather, from the Arabic revolution, which is becoming overwhelming. This second phase of the “Arab Spring” bears no resemblance to the high-flying expectations awakened by those great marches to freedom spawned by the overthrow of the Tunisian and Egyptian governments.
From Bahrain to Yemen, Libya to Syria, those first bursts of exhilaration have turned to bloody conflict, and there is widening dissatisfaction among Egyptians with the transition. It has also become clear that the irreversible changes in the region have not ushered in a peaceful and prosperous Golden Age, but rather years if not decades of volatile and potentially extremely violent fights to establish new – and unknown – orders.
The mood of the public in the West is shifting from projected, and often exaggerated, hopes for the Middle East to fatalism. Because NATO bombing in Libya has not yielded instant capitulation from Gaddafi, and Libyan rebels haven’t yet come up with a road map to ensure liberal democracy after Gaddafi is gone, many Western pundits have taken to reflecting on a supposedly senseless war. The tenacity of NATO’s involvement has, however, brought Gaddafi’s fall that much nearer, although admittedly what happens afterwards as Libya tries to forge its future will be no piece of cake. Yet who would seriously argue that Gaddafi should have been left to his own murderous devices to quell the situation so that, order restored, the West could sit down at the same table with him again?
Democratization is more important than stability
As the despotic Sunni regimes fall, the West is increasingly aware of the extent of strategic changes in store for the Middle East. Fear is growing that Iran (and even more, an Iran with atomic weapons) will have the most to gain from this. There is much to be said for ensuring balance by equipping the Saudis with modern weapons – an approach reflected in recent U.S. policy as well.
It would be disastrous to bind realpolitik at any price with the recent fetishistic fixation on “stability.” Going back to the old order is not in the cards -- but neither is the drafting of a master plan that would give the West a way to drive future developments in the region. The situations in the various countries concerned are far too diverse and volatile for that.
However, instead of running after situations as they develop, the West must actively steer the inevitable changes in the direction of freedom and the rule of law. It must establish and focus on priorities that have a positive influence on the global development of the region, such as the further democratization of Egypt through strong civil and secular government and institutions, and binding Libya to the West once Gaddafi is gone.
Among the rampant risks of the present Middle Eastern situation also lie unsuspected opportunities. Israel is presently under much less international pressure than it had before the various regional uprisings. No longer are Western governments alone in seeing Israel as an island of stability in a sea of excessive violence and threatening unpredictability.
Even Turkey, eager to boost its image as a hardboiled opponent of “Zionism“ and protector of the Palestinians, has at least temporarily de-escalated its tone with regard to Israel. That’s the only way to interpret Turkey’s withdrawal from the “Gaza Flotilla.“ Only a year ago Turkish authorities were using the flotilla as an anti-Israel propaganda tool. Ankara’s Islamic government has also had to come to terms with the fact that it bet on the wrong horses by wooing Syria and Libya – at a cost of billions to the Turkish economy. To normalize business dealings with Israel would certainly be more lucrative.
This situation offers the West the chance to involve Turkey in joint strategic plans for the Middle East. Tragically, it is just at this decisive period of transition in the region that the United States and Europe are in the throes of massive debt crises that not only reduce their scope for negotiation but make financial support increasingly unpopular. Yet for the West to turn its back on the Middle East could, in the long term, cost it infinitely more than any investment in the future they might make now.


Die Welt via WorldCrunch

http://www.worldcrunch.com/realpolitik-returns-western-leaders-turn-cold-arab-spring/3456

Make no mistake, in a year the question will be WTF did we thing we were doing in a war in Libya.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 10:19 pm
Anomymous have hacked the Syrian Military's web site:
http://mod.gov.sy/

Symbolic I guess

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cia.png
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2011 02:21 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

It seems Silly Female Impersonator can not see any reason why a different way of saying something would be better or worse .
Talking about talking is the second intention... If you want to communicate, commuicate... If you want to run folks down and find fault, then who can fault you since it is so common...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2011 02:24 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Much is usually qualitative, and when it is used as a quantitative word it is similar to saying "more better" ....the world has already experienced superlative overload....most best....even the Old Spice man needs to up the ante by saying..fresh...fresher...freshest....freshestshist .
I always like to say more betterist and the like... English is my language, and if I can't flog a few extra miles out of it without it crapping out, then it is time to learn French all over agin...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2011 02:26 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
I'm sick and tired of hearing Obama call Israel a "democracy." He doesn't understand the term.
So it is only a democracy if you approve of the result of the election ?
It takes more than an election to make a democracy...
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 05:15 pm
Twitter reports say Gaddafi has been detained.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 05:27 pm
@hingehead,
Listening to the developments ABC radio.
Apparently hundreds seriously injured & hospitals unable to cope.
Is this finally end of Gaddafi?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 05:33 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Is this finally end of Gaddafi?
Sure, but it is two of his kids that they have not Gaddafi...he will not allow himself to be taken alive. Then most likely things get even worse for the Libyans, but we will need to wait and see.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 05:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
Yes, we will just have to wait & see what happens.
Right now we can only speculate.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 05:48 pm
Lots of details not found elsewhere are here:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/201182122425905430.html

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 09:39 pm
@Butrflynet,
Also, http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d9e00948-cc0e-11e0-9176-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Vj22w8xI
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 06:47 am
What are your comments about what this reporter is saying about NATO?


0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 10:07 am
Why Gaddafi's crack troops melted away

Quote:
As Tripoli was surrounded from three sides - east, south and west - government forces precipitously collapsed.

What at first might have been mistaken for a tactical withdrawal into urban areas, emerged more clearly as the disintegration of the government's most feared fighting units.

The vaunted Khamis Brigade - commanded by a son of Col Gaddafi - saw its barracks raided with impunity. Rebel convoys punched deep into Tripoli, meeting virtually no resistance.

Why did battle-hardened Libyan soldiers, fed on a diet of anti-rebel propaganda and willing to fight in the face of overwhelming Nato air power, melt away so suddenly?

The answer can only be speculative at this stage, but there are a few possibilities.

First, there was an element of retreat rather than a rout. Tripoli is unevenly pacified and the euphoria of Green Square obscures the continuing fighting in several suburbs.

Western parts of the city are being progressively secured but enduring sniper fire shows that loyalists still remain willing to risk their lives for a crumbling regime.

Underground groups

Second, where soldiers did lay down their arms, the much-maligned NTC deserves some credit.

Col Gaddafi's presidential guard surrendered in line with agreements it had earlier reached with the Benghazi leadership.

Over the past three months the NTC reportedly worked with Nato to arm underground groups in Tripoli.

As the noose tightened around Tripoli, these and other dissidents felt empowered to begin confronting the city's security forces.

Hence the weekend's patchwork urban revolts, some of them possibly cued by messages sent from mosques.

A remarkable amphibious assault on Tripoli demonstrated the extent of planning that underlay rebel operations, both in and outside of Tripoli, in recent days.

Third, Nato's relentless pounding of armour and artillery east of Zawiya greatly softened up government units, breaking down much of the resistance that would otherwise have slowed the rebel path.

As the war began to revolve around the periphery of the capital, Nato could concentrate its surveillance assets (including Predator drones) and firepower on smaller areas, exploiting intelligence transmitted directly by rebels on the ground.

On Saturday, three-quarters of all Nato targets were in the capital.

The role of Western special forces in forward air control (to guide air strikes) and rebel training is not yet understood, but seems likely to have been extensive.

This detracts nothing from the organic character of the NTC, but underscores the decisive impact of Nato's decision to serve as the rebel air force.

What about the aftermath? The possibility of ad hoc retributive justice is inevitable in post-revolutionary environments.

It would be naive to discount the possibility of serious violence, but talk of a bloodbath looks overblown. The hundreds of rebels who flooded the streets of Tripoli have so far shown no interest in mass vengeance.

Nonetheless, the NTC is under unprecedented international and Libyan scrutiny, and will be held responsible even for isolated abuses by forces nominally under its command.

Even small provocations could see the group outflanked by political competitors with their own claims to representing aggrieved groups.

Liberal constitution
Nato member states have little appetite for a peacekeeping force. They believe that a Western military footprint would inflame regional tensions.

Nor is the NTC eager for something that would further complicate efforts to establish its authenticity and independence.

The UK and France know that this revolution requires ownership, particularly as details of Nato's expansive role trickles out over the coming months. But unobtrusive and discretely supplied advice on urban policing and the disarmament of militias would be helpful.

One crucial task is the swift repair of damaged oil and gas infrastructure. The restoration of export revenues would finance reconstruction and provide the transitional government with the resources to meet high expectations.

But even this requires sensitive policy - any suggestion that an interim and unelected government was apportioning revenue unfairly could poison the process of institution building. Iraq's difficulties in this regard should furnish important lessons.

In the longer-term, there is a paradox to Libya's revolution. The same factors that gives rise to a power vacuum - the absence of national institutions and an independent military establishment - could also enable the creation of a new Libyan state, free from predatory vested interests of the sort that are buffeting Egypt's democrats.

The NTC's draft constitution is an impeccably liberal document, promising to fill that vacuum with inclusive and pluralistic structures of government.

That promise may flounder on the cross-cutting tribal, religious and regional fault-lines of Libya's war, but its best prospect of redemption lies in persuading the wary that their best chance of equitable treatment lies in the restoration of political authority.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 11:33 am
@revelette,
I believe that the leadership vacuum will be the biggest problem facing the rebels.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 01:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Maybe, but the rebels and NATO have had some time to think about this problem as they probably knew sooner or later Gaddafi would have been ousted.

(also from the above article)

Quote:
In the longer-term, there is a paradox to Libya's revolution. The same factors that gives rise to a power vacuum - the absence of national institutions and an independent military establishment - could also enable the creation of a new Libyan state, free from predatory vested interests of the sort that are buffeting Egypt's democrats.


I am encouraged that Obama has said that we will not send ground troops in to assist in the transitional government. I hope like crazy we stick to that. We do not need to be up in the face of all this for numerous reasons.

US says no boots on ground in post-Qaddafi Libya as UN chief urges end of fighting

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Aug, 2011 01:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I believe that the leadership vacuum will be the biggest problem facing the rebels.
Mandated by the lack of consensus between the tribes...even though it will take months to get the oil flowing again and years to get back to previous production splitting the oil revenue will be the first order of business.
0 Replies
 
 

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