53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 11:04 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Don't you just love it when a response you've put some considerable time & effort into is treated like this?

The cowardly way (of some in) A2K, it seems.

Never-the-less, I hope it is not totally beyond the realms of possibility to receive some thoughtful responses, anyway?

That would be excellent.

One can live in hope, I guess? Wink

There have in fact been a number of such "thoughtful responses" to your many posts here. Unfortunately you have dealt with them in a rather childish way.

You are oddly sensitive to reactions to posts of yours that "you've put some considerable time & effort into", but equally dismissive of equivalent works on the part of those who take a different view from yours. The observable truth is that you never engage the issues and questions others raise about your prefabricated , simplistic and ever-so-nice views of the world. Instead, you ignore the historical context; repeat your supposed lofty motivations as though they alone trump other factors; attempt to corner others with preemptive and categorical questions; and huff loudly at the failings of your questioners.

You are cosy enough with your claques, but apparently unable to deal in an adult way with those who disagree with you. You easily cast out suggestions that the troubles in the Middle East and the Arab world are the result of U.S, policy and actions; but ignore the historical context; and bridle at any suggestion that the current uprisings might become derailed, positioning yourself always as the final arbiter of what is right and wrong in the world. This isn't a schoolroom and we aren't unequal, submisssive children.

"One can live in hope" indeed!
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 11:07 am
@JTT,
JTT, I personally think your bashing of the US is extreme, but I also admit that the US government operations around the world should be charged as criminals against humanity. I've just completed editing my travelblog on Saigon, and it shows the pictures from their War Remnanants Museum with pictures of the deformities caused by our use of agent orange during the Vietnam war.

This is only one of few cases where our country has done damage in countries and its people by creating a false sense of urgency for our involvement or to start a war. Johnson used false information and lied to start the Vietnam war, but he was never charged with any crime.

This may be a diversion from the Middle East, but when we consider the reasons why we get involved in crimes against humanity, it relates 100%.

My travelogue on Vietnam: http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/c.i.222/1/1297880644/tpod.html

Americans lack the courage to challenge our government too often.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 11:10 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
You easily cast out suggestions that the troubles in the Middle East and the Arab world are the result of U.S, policy and actions; but ignore the historical context;


That's a pretty sneaky defence you've mounted there for war crimes, Gob. And new, can't say that one hasn't been tried before.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
JTT, I personally think your bashing of the US is extreme,


That's an excuse, CI. It isn't US bashing to point out those very crimes against humanity. It can't be mentioned often enough because there is a whole lotta people who don't know of or won't admit of those war crimes.

Look at a Revelette, a wholly reasonable person, who thinks that facts presented by John Stockwell, an ex-CIA biggee who was intimately involved in all, are untrue. When it's pointed out to him/her/everyone that this particular information came from the Church Committee, a US Senate hearing no less, there is stone cold silence or worse yet, attempts to explain them away, to defend them, to shoot the messenger, to ... .

Quote:
This is only one of few cases where our country has done damage in countries and its people by creating a false sense of urgency for our involvement or to start a war.


You must have misspoken for the part I've put in bold for it's hardly "one of few cases". It's been unrelenting since at least the late 1800's when the US took over what were Spanish possessions, the Philippines and Cuba.

The Japanese modeled their Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere after the American and others pillaging of various countries.

Quote:
he Japanese Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe planned the Sphere in 1940 in an attempt to create a Great East Asia, comprising Japan, Manchukuo, China, and parts of Southeast Asia, that would, according to imperial propaganda, establish a new international order seeking "co prosperity" for Asian countries which would share prosperity and peace, free from Western colonialism and domination.[2] Military goals of this expansion included naval operations in the Indian Ocean and the isolation of Australia.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere


I doubt that the Japanese needed an example for their brutality but the US example in the Philippines and other places was certainly there as a shining example of what was possible for Imperialist powers.

Quote:
Americans lack the courage to challenge our government too often.


Americans lack the courage for a lot of things. There should be no need in a country that purports to follow the rule of law to challenge the government when a president like Reagan or Bush [hardly the only ones] engages in crimes both national and international.

There is much back patting and rah rahing about how the Constitution works, what a great system we'all have but the lessons of Watergate went right out the window. Successive presidents were worse, committed more crimes than Nixon and he was no slouch himself.







JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:47 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I don't think I would argue against that in a room full of intelligent experts.

There are unintelligent experts btw. One can easily get a certificate of expertise by knowing about 20% of a syllabus. Less with parental influence and a powerful need of the issueing authority to avoid looking like its teaching is hopeless.


We've seen those "intelligent experts" time and again, Spendi. Those are the dithering idiots in that British inquiry, the spineless pieces of excrement that made up the 9-11 Commision, the Madeleine Albrights who think that it's fine for half a million Iraqi kids to die for US interests, the US presidents/UK PMs who lie about events that see millions of innocents die for dog knows what possible reasons.

You've badly mistaken "intelligent experts" for self centered criminals.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:01 pm
Roundup of today's events from the Guardian live blog

• Libya: Security forces in Benghazi have shot dead at least one person and injured a dozen after opening fire on mourners at a funeral for protesters killed in earlier demonstrations. Special forces stormed a protest camp in the eastern city at 5am.

• Bahrain: Thousands of protesters have retaken Pearl Square in the Bahraini capital after Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad al-Khalifa ordered troops off the streets.

• Yemen: One protester was killed and seven were hurt in clashes with security forces in the capital, Sana'a.

• Algeria: Riot police in Algiers have broken up a planned march by thousands of pro-democracy campaigners.

From earlier
Here are the main developments overnight and this morning:

• Libyan security forces killed 35 people in the eastern city of Benghazi last night, according to Human Rights Watch. This brings the death toll from three days of protests in the east of Libya to 84, according to the New York-based group. Eyewitness accounts given to news agencies suggest the total could be significantly higher.

• Libya's main internet service provider, General Post and Telecommunications Company, has largely cut off access to the internet. Al-Jazeera says its Arabic news channel is being jammed on several frequencies.

• Bahrain's main Shia opposition group has rejected King Hamad's offer of national dialogue to end the violent unrest in the Sunni-ruled Gulf state. At least 50 people were wounded on Friday in the capital, Manama, following the funerals for four protesters killed on Thursday.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:03 pm
@JTT,
Several points of contention:
We already know how you think and believe about US atrocities. Repeating them over and over gets tiresome. Are you a brainless parrot?

If you're indeed a citizen of Australia, then rather than speak about the Japanese, why not about England? You're a descendant from England? They have had their share of untold cruelties, wars, and colonization of many countries over their history. Even stole most of their national treasures. Also, England has had their share of domestic wars, so quit babbling about the US as if it's the only country with a bad history. You do know world history, don't you? FYI, history is replete with many cultures crime against humanity.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 02:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We already know how you think and believe about US atrocities. Repeating them over and over gets tiresome. Are you a brainless parrot?


If repeating things over and over is sufficient to get people designated a brainless parrot you and your claque on the evolution threads should get a few trees to perch in.

I think that what George was trying to say was that while he understands the lady in the first-class railway carriage who is reading Ruskin and disparaging the train driver as a person of inferior station, after seeing him gob green gollies in the station, and holding forth about steam traction ruining the countryside, he is neither impressed nor enlightened by it and at a loss as to how anybody else might be.

Perhaps if we all studied Shaw's Major Barbara we might be able to decide how much of Undershaft, Barbara and Prof. Cusins is in each of us at different times and consider how we hold them in equilibrium.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:11 pm
@spendius,
Show me?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:16 pm
Happy Revolution Baby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UHv0uZDTU
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 04:54 pm
Quote:
Libyan protesters risk 'suicide' by army hands
Peter Beaumont and Martin Chulov in Bahrain
Guardian.co.uk, Saturday 19 February 2011 18.07 GMT


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/19/1298138644086/Libyan-leader-Muammar-Gad-007.jpg
Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi Gaddafi has warned anti-government demonstrators they risk being shot by the army. Photograph: Sabri Elmhedwi/EPA

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is confronting the most serious challenge to his 42-year rule as leader of Libya by unleashing his army on unarmed protesters.

Unlike the rulers of neighbouring Egypt, Gaddafi has refused to countenance the politics of disobedience, despite growing international condemnation, and the death toll of demonstrators nearing 100.

The pro-government Al-Zahf al-Akhdar newspaper warned that the government would "violently and thunderously respond" to the protests, and said those opposing the regime risked "suicide".


William Hague, the UK's foreign secretary, condemned the violence as "unacceptable and horrifying", even as the Libyan regime's special forces, backed by African mercenaries, launched a dawn attack on a protest camp in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

Britain is scrambling to extricate itself from its recently cosy relationship with Gaddafi, initiated by then prime minister Tony Blair in 2004. That rapprochement saw Libya open its doors to British oil companies in exchange for becoming a new ally in the "war on terror" while Britain sold Gaddafi arms.

Hague's outspoken comments came a day after the government revoked arms export licenses to both Bahrain and Libya for their use of deadly force against protesters calling for a change in the regime.

With internet services in Libya shut off for long periods, foreign journalists excluded and access already blocked to social networking sites, Gaddafi appeared determined to quell a revolt centred in the country's east, which has long suffered a policy of deliberate economic exclusion.

Libya has also jammed the signals of Al-Jazeera, the Arab broadcaster to the country. Reports from inside the country claimed pro-regime forces had deliberately aimed at protesters' heads.

That allegation appeared to be supported by shocking video footage smuggled out of the country which seems to show two unarmed protesters being shot in the head.

Hague said: "Governments must respond to legitimate aspirations of their people, rather than resort to the use of force, and must respect the right to peaceful protest.

"I condemn the violence in Libya, including reports of the use of heavy weapons fire and a unit of snipers against demonstrators. This is clearly unacceptable and horrifying.

"Media access has been severely restricted. The absence of TV cameras does not mean the attention of the world should not be focused on the actions of the Libyan government."

At least five cities in eastern Libya have seen protests and clashes in recent days. Special forces attempted to break up a protest camp that included lawyers and judges outside Benghazi's courthouse. "They fired tear gas on protesters in tents and cleared the areas after many fled carrying the dead and the injured," one protester said.

A mass funeral for 35 people who died on Friday came under fire from pro-government snipers who killed one person at the procession and injured a dozen more, according to sources in the city.

The shootings came amid credible reports of a round-up of government opponents who were taken from their homes in raids by security forces.

The crackdown has been led by the elite Khamis Brigade, led by Gaddafi's youngest son. Unconfirmed reports claim that force has been backed by African mercenaries brought into the country in five separate flights.

A video on the Libya 17th February website appeared to show an injured African mercenary who had captured by anti-government protesters.

Protests have so far been centred on Benghazi and the towns of Bayda, Ajdabiya, Zawiya, and Derna while Tripoli has remained so far calm but tense.The latest events in Libya have come against the background of continuing protests across the Middle East and North Africa.

In Bahrain, which has also seen attempts to put down pro-democracy protests with lethal force in recent days, anti-government protesters swarmed back to a symbolic square on Saturday, putting riot police to flight after the army was withdrawn.

A wave of protests has spread through the Middle East and North Africa after rebellions in Tunisia and Egypt toppled their long term leaders.

In Yemen today riot police shot dead a protester and injured five others after opening fire on thousands of marchers.

Meanwhile in Algeria police brandishing clubs broke a rally into isolated groups to keep protesters from marching.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/19/libyan-protesters-gaddafi-suicide-army
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 05:06 pm
Quote:
19 February 2011 Last updated at 18:08 GMT
Bahrain unrest: Protesters occupy symbolic Pearl Square

Thousands of anti-government protesters in Bahrain have resumed an occupation of Pearl Square, the focal point of protests in the capital Manama.

Jubilant protesters returned after riot police fired tear gas and shotgun rounds before withdrawing. Reports say some 60 people may have been injured.

The army, which guarded the square after using deadly force to clear it on Thursday, was earlier ordered out.

Bahrain's crown prince is holding initial talks with opposition parties
.

They include the main Shia opposition parties in the Sunni-ruled Gulf state, our correspondent Caroline Hawley reports from Manama.

Earlier, reports said that the main Shia opposition bloc, Wefaq, had rejected an offer from the king to hold talks aimed at ending days of unrest. They demanded the withdrawal of the military from the streets before talks could begin.

It's not clear what this is going to mean politically. Street politics have been much easier to understand than the behind the scenes manoeuvring. The streets have been left to the protesters - they see that as a victory.

Somehow the royal family has to find a way now to begin a dialogue with the opposition. But by handling the protests earlier this week with such brutality, they have really eroded the trust they need to begin meaningful political negotiations quickly.

So it is not now clear to what extent the government is in a position to call for talks. The other factor we have seen repeated across the Middle East is that when governments are seen to be making concessions from a position of weakness the opposition sense an opportunity and call for more.

In a statement made on Bahraini TV on Saturday Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad al-Khalifa said "calm is needed at this time... for all parties to be able to present their opinions".

The crown prince - who controls the armed forces - ordered the army off the streets. .... <cont>


Quote:
Analysis
Kevin Connolly BBC News, Manama

It's not clear what this is going to mean politically. Street politics have been much easier to understand than the behind the scenes manoeuvring. The streets have been left to the protesters - they see that as a victory.

Somehow the royal family has to find a way now to begin a dialogue with the opposition. But by handling the protests earlier this week with such brutality, they have really eroded the trust they need to begin meaningful political negotiations quickly.

So it is not now clear to what extent the government is in a position to call for talks. The other factor we have seen repeated across the Middle East is that when governments are seen to be making concessions from a position of weakness the opposition sense an opportunity and call for more.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12514849
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 05:59 pm
Things are not going very well in Libya

http://www.youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish#p/u/4/tmSKHo_R-V0
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 06:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Show me?


I haven't the time to rewrite Major Barbara. Nor the inclination. If I did I would avoid the solecisms and the naivete.

It's on the record. It's famous. Read it if you're interested. If you're not interested it's okay. We understand.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 06:50 pm
@spendius,
spendi, When you make a charge, at least provide some evidence for it. Otherwise, shut up!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 07:04 pm
I just watched this recent (Oz) ABC Lateline interview with Professor Tariq Ramadan of Oxford University.
Very interesting & informative, I thought, particularly his explanations about the differences between the various peoples' uprisings in the middle east and quite a bit more, too ...
Definitely worth a look.
I'm posting it here so those of you who are interested can watch it, too. :


Quote:
VIDEO: The people must stand up: Tariq Ramadan
Source: Lateline
Published: Thursday, February 17, 2011 10:39 AEDT
Expires: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:39 AEDT

Tariq Ramadan, Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies at Oxford University, says the popular uprising in Egypt could be imitated anywhere.


VIDEO:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/02/17/3141967.htm


Transcript:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3141967.htm?layout=popup
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 07:50 pm
Quote:
The CBS correspondent Lara Logan has broken that code of silence. She has covered some of the most dangerous stories in the world, and done a lot of brave things in her career. But her decision to go public earlier this week with her attack by a mob in Tahrir Square in Cairo was by far the bravest. Hospitalized for days, she is still recuperating from the attack, described by CBS as a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/opinion/20barker.html?hp

Really? Please point to where she has said anything about this.....or do you mean to say that I am right that she likely pressured CBS into publishing her victim status for personal gain??

It still is not fair to Egyptian men however, alluding to some great sexual crime but staying silent on what actually happened.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 09:32 pm
@JPB,
Thanks.

Wow!!!

These people are so brave.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 09:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The brainless parroting that you should be discussing is that propaganda stream that has come from the US and its citizens since the very beginning.

It has been used to hide these war crimes, making great pretense that the US is in it for the citizenry of these countries they rape and pillage. Pure, unadulterated hogwash.

I spoke about the Japanese, not to pull your chain, CI, but to point up that the USA, and yes, some other countries provided the pattern for what the Japanese did. The Japanese were vilified by the US and their allies for their actions in SE Asia when the US was and has been far far worse.

The Japanese were booted out of those SE Asian countries and who sought to take their place, none other than the USA. Who is it that has subjected the Korean people to another half a century of being pawns to dictators? I'm pretty sure that this will require only one guess.

The Japanese were held to account for their actions in what was pretty much a kangaroo court; charges were dropped against some when it was pointed out that the Americans had done the same things.

The most vile war criminals, both German and Japanese, were forgiven by the US in exchange for their evil secrets.

The focus is the USA because the US is the country that is causing, has been causing the vast majority of problems for the last sixty years. There would have been no illegal invasions of either Iraq or Afghanistan had it not been for the lying bastard twice elected as your president.

Reagan and his band of war criminals destroyed Nicaragua, in the process killed 40 to 50 thousand people. As you know your history, you know that was in the 1980s.

There are many more examples, some more brutal, some less, but all evil, all war crimes. Those dancing puppets that ran with the big dog should all face war crimes tribunals but don't try to give the US a pass for its massive and expansive brutality.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 10:40 pm
@msolga,
If you are suffering under the delusion that I asked for your opinion, it was a grave injustice to both of us. Please be assured that no question I ask on this thread or any other is directed at you.


 

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