53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 09:46 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Perhap you have achieved a new state of enlightnment from which you can criticize all others. I don't claim such virtue for myself - and I am skeptical of such claims in others.


It'd be pretty damn hard for you to criticize anyone given the record of your country and your own personal record, Gob. There are a few of course, but not many.

The difference between Australia and the US is that the Aussies didn't steal the wealth from pretty much every country in the world. Had they been as powerful as the US, I suppose they could have been as rapacious.

I wonder what the US would have done had the Aussies set out their own Monroe Doctrine. I don't think the Americans would have taken too kindly to being told to stop raping and pillaging the Philippines.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:17 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Yes, several: including yours.

Show me.
You'll certainly find statements of support, of hoping the Egyptian protesters (in particular, on this thread) succeed in their goals ... but any predictions of the eventual outcomes of these uprisings, I don't think so ... how could any of us confidently make such predictions?

Quote:
Why have you omitted Zimbabwe, The Ivory Coast, Sudan, and Somalia? The fact is the march towards freedom and prosperity in those countries has been a very mixed bag, at best.

Because they were the first ones which came to mind.
I guess I could also have thrown in examples from the Soviet Union and any number of other examples, too?
So?

Quote:
The "hope that people risking their lives in these struggles... etc" is, I believe, founded on an exaggerated notion of "risking their lives" That doesn't mean you don't get to claim virtue for your oh-so-nice wishes, only that they may, in the circumstances, be unrealistic.

"Exaggerated notion of risking their lives"?
Are you paying attention at all?
What on earth do you think is happening in Libya right now?
Not only are people risking their lives, quite a few have lost their lives already.
Of course I wish them well. Who the hell would want exist under Gaddafi's regime (or Mubarak's or ...?), for god's sake?

Quote:
Partly. I do think it has some merit. Do you disagree?

I think I've already made a comment or two already.
Tell me about the parts that you find have merit, first, George.
I'd be interested.

Quote:
Perhaps. However the histories of just about every country and civilization in the history of the world, including your own, demonstrate very clearly that self interest does indeed usually trump the interests of others. Perhap you have achieved a new state of enlightnment from which you can criticize all others. I don't claim such virtue for myself - and I am skeptical of such claims in others.

Confused
I have been commenting on events in the middle east, the subject of this thread.
I said:
Quote:

But what do “our” interests have to do with their struggles for self determination, their aspirations for decent lives? Is it reasonable to argue that our interests should override theirs?
I don't believe so.

Something to do with the notion of self determination, George.
Hardly some newly discovered state of enlightenment.







Endymion
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:19 pm
'They didn't run away. They faced the bullets head-on'

After Egypt's revolution, the people have lost their fear

By Robert Fisk in Bahrain

"Massacre – it's a massacre," the doctors were shouting. Three dead. Four dead. One man was carried past me on a stretcher in the emergency room, blood spurting on to the floor from a massive bullet wound in his thigh.

A few feet away, six nurses were fighting for the life of a pale-faced, bearded man with blood oozing out of his chest. "I have to take him to theatre now," a doctor screamed. "There is no time – he's dying!"

Others were closer to death. One poor youth – 18, 19 years old, perhaps – had a terrible head wound, a bullet hole in the leg and a bloody mess on his chest. The doctor beside him turned to me weeping, tears splashing on to his blood-stained gown. "He has a fragmented bullet in his brain and I can't get the bits out, and the bones on the left side of his head are completely smashed. His arteries are all broken. I just can't help him." Blood was cascading on to the floor. It was pitiful, outrageous, shameful. These were not armed men but mourners returning from a funeral, Shia Muslims of course, shot down by their own Bahraini army yesterday afternoon.

A medical orderly was returning with thousands of other men and women from the funeral at Daih of one of the demonstrators killed at Pearl Square in the early hours of Thursday.

"We decided to walk to the hospital because we knew there was a demonstration. Some of us were carrying tree branches as a token of peace which we wanted to give to the soldiers near the square, and we were shouting 'peace, peace. There was no provocation – nothing against the government. Then suddenly the soldiers started shooting. One was firing a machine gun from the top of a personnel carrier. There were police but they just left as the soldiers shot at us. But you know, the people in Bahrain have changed. They didn't want to run away. They faced the bullets with their bodies."

The demonstration at the hospital had already drawn thousands of Shia protesters – including hundreds of doctors and nurses from all over Manama, still in their white gowns – to demand the resignation of the Bahraini Minister of Health, Faisal Mohamed al-Homor, for refusing to allow ambulances to fetch the dead and injured from Thursday morning's police attack on the Pearl Square demonstrators.

But their fury turned to near-hysteria when the first wounded were brought in yesterday. Up to 100 doctors crowded into the emergency rooms, shouting and cursing their King and their government as paramedics fought to push trolleys loaded with the latest victims through screaming crowds. One man had a thick wad of bandages stuffed into his chest but blood was already staining his torso, dripping off the trolley. "He has a live round in his chest – and now there is air and blood in his lungs," the nurse beside him told me. "I think he is going." Thus did the anger of Bahrain's army – and, I suppose, the anger of the al-Khalifa family, the King included – reach the Sulmaniya medical centre.

The staff felt that they too were victims. And they were right. Five ambulances sent to the street – yesterday's victims were shot down opposite a fire station close to Pearl Square – were stopped by the army. Moments later, the hospital discovered that all their mobile phones had been switched off. Inside the hospital was a doctor, Sadeq al-Aberi, who was himself badly hurt by the police when he went to help the wounded on Thursday morning.

Rumours burned like petrol in Bahrain yesterday and many medical staff were insisting that up to 60 corpses had been taken from Pearl Square on Thursday morning and that police were seen by crowds loading bodies into three refrigerated trucks. One man showed me a mobile phone snapshot in which the three trucks could be seen clearly, parked behind several army armoured personnel carriers. According to other demonstrators, the vehicles, which bore Saudi registration plates, were later seen on the highway to Saudi Arabia. It is easy to dismiss such ghoulish stories, but I found one man – another male nurse at the hospital who works under the umbrella of the United Nations – who told me that an American colleague, he gave his name as "Jarrod", had videotaped the bodies being put into the trucks but was then arrested by the police and had not been seen since.

Why has the royal family of Bahrain allowed its soldiers to open fire at peaceful demonstrators? To turn on Bahraini civilians with live fire within 24 hours of the earlier killings seems like an act of lunacy.

But the heavy hand of Saudi Arabia may not be far away. The Saudis are fearful that the demonstrations in Manama and the towns of Bahrain will light equally provocative fires in the east of their kingdom where a substantial Shia minority lives around Dhahran and other towns close to the Kuwaiti border. Their desire to see the Shia of Bahrain crushed as quickly as possible was made very clear at Thursday's Gulf summit here, with all the sheikhs and princes agreeing that there would be no Egyptian-style revolution in a kingdom which has a Shia majority of perhaps 70 per cent and a small Sunni minority which includes the royal family.

Yet Egypt's revolution is on everyone's lips in Bahrain. Outside the hospital, they were shouting: "The people want to topple the minister," a slight variation of the chant of the Egyptians who got rid of Mubarak, "The people want to topple the government."

And many in the crowd said – as the Egyptians said – that they had lost their fear of the authorities, of the police and army.

The policemen and soldiers for whom they now express such disgust were all too evident on the streets of Manama yesterday, watching sullenly from midnight-blue armoured vehicles or perched on American-made tanks. There appeared to be no British weaponry in evidence – although these are early days and there was Russian-made armour alongside the M-60 tanks. In the past, small Shia uprisings were ruthlessly crushed in Bahrain with the help of a Jordanian torturer and a senior intelligence factotum who just happened to be a former British Special Branch officer.

And the stakes here are high. This is the first serious insurrection in the wealthy Gulf states – more dangerous to the Saudis than the Islamists who took over the centre of Mecca more than 30 years ago – and Bahrain's al-Khalifa family realise just how fraught the coming days will be for them. A source which has always proved reliable over many years told me that late on Wednesday night, a member of the al-Khalifa family – said to be the Crown Prince – held a series of telephone conversations with a prominent Shia cleric, the Wifaq Shia party leader Ali Salman, who was camping in Pearl Square. The Prince apparently offered a series of reforms and government changes which he thought the cleric had approved. But the demonstrators stayed in the square. They demanded the dissolution of parliament. Then came the police.

In the early afternoon yesterday, around 3,000 people held a rally in support of the al-Khalifas and there was much waving of the national flag from the windows of cars. This may make the front pages of the Bahraini press today – but it won't end the Shia uprising. And last night's chaos at Manama's greatest hospital – the blood slopping off the wounded, the shouts for help from those on the stretchers, the doctors who had never before seen such gunshot wounds; one of them simply shook his head in disbelief when a woman went into a fit next to a man who was sheathed in blood – have only further embittered the Shia of this nation.

A doctor who gave his name as Hussein stopped me leaving the emergency room because he wanted to explain his anger. "The Israelis do this sort of thing to the Palestinians – but these are Arabs shooting at Arabs," he bellowed above the din of screams and shouts of fury. "This is the Bahraini government doing this to their own people. I was in Egypt two weeks ago, working at the Qasr el-Aini hospital – but things are much more fucked up here."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/they-didnt-run-away-they-faced-the-bullets-headon-2219267.html


Film Coverage of the Middle East

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:20 pm
Crackdown on (UK) arms exports to Bahrain

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/crackdown-on-arms-exports-to-bahrain-2219269.html
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  0  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:27 pm
just read through the last few pages of this thread -

what the hell us wrong with some people?
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:31 pm
Quote:
What happened to Logan is every woman's nightmare, but it's also atypical. Most cases of sexual assault in Egypt are not as gruesome as Logan's experience, they are instead much like what happens to Hussein—a near constant stream of verbal harassment and the odd groping. A 2008 study found 83 percent of Egyptian women said they had been sexually harassed, while 62 percent of men admitted to harassing women; 53 percent of men blamed women for "bringing it on" themselves. But there's one thing the numbers don't spell out: the psychological impact of frequent minor assaults—too trivial to report on their own—is debilitating.

But according to Hussein and from what I observed, Midan Tahrir during the 18-day Tahrir encampment was different. Logan's assault is even more demoralizing for Egyptian women because it comes at a time when they truly believe things are changing for the better.

Harassment was at an all-time low during the protests. Many told me at the time that was because the square felt like a "family," withstanding attacks, first from the police, and then from regime-sponsored thugs. It all started on Jan. 25, the first day Egyptians took to the streets demanding their rights. "On Tuesday, I went out on the streets really considerate of what I was going to wear, really considerate," Hussein remembers.
http://www.slate.com/id/2285524

Egyptian women would do well to remember that we dont actually know what happened to Logan, and thus getting worked up is out of order.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:39 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Why have you omitted Zimbabwe, The Ivory Coast, Sudan, and Somalia? The fact is the march towards freedom and prosperity in those countries has been a very mixed bag, at best.

Because they were the first ones which came to mind.
I guess I could also have thrown in examples from the Soviet Union and any number of other examples, too?
So?
So the first ones that came into your mind were a very highly selective subset that seriously distorts any characterization of a realistic outcome. That was my point: you were being highly credulous and unrealistic.
msolga wrote:

Quote:
The "hope that people risking their lives in these struggles... etc" is, I believe, founded on an exaggerated notion of "risking their lives" That doesn't mean you don't get to claim virtue for your oh-so-nice wishes, only that they may, in the circumstances, be unrealistic.

"Exaggerated notion of risking their lives"?
Are you paying attention at all?
What on earth do you think is happening in Libya right now?
Not only are people risking their lives, quite a few have lost their lives already.
The odds were indeed quite favorable - several thousands of demonstrators for each death. For a young man those are negligible odds. I served two tours in a war in which the odds of death, each tour were about one in ten and of capture only slightly less - as did many others around me. Even they seemed small at the time. Nothing to brag about there - only the stark difference in the real risk involved.

msolga wrote:

Of course I wish them well. Who the hell would want exist under Gaddafi's regime (or Mubarak's or ...?), for god's sake?
Perhaps the British officials who facilitated the release of the Lockerbee bomber to Lybia.

msolga wrote:

Tell me about the parts that you find have merit, first, George.
I'd be interested.
You have already quoted them.

I have just returned from a very enjoyable extended lunch with some friends in a familiar and pleasant San Francisco restaurant. Lots of good conversation, excellent pasta and wine. It is raining like hell here today, though not so disastrously as you have experienced in Australia. I don't entertain unpleasant feelings about anyone.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
That CBS statement is all we knew all week, and it is woefully inadequate. It admits that something terrible and significant happened, but it is -- quite properly -- too protective of the victim's privacy to tell us what.

In other words, it heads off at the pass any other news department that may have been working on its own on rumors of the Logan assault. But it only hints at what actually happened. And how it came about.

All we really know is that she was hospitalized and released.

I know that I can't be the only journalist in the world who wondered if a possible perceived vacuum at the top of "CBS Evening News" -- with Katie Couric still negotiating renewal of her CBS contract -- in any way emboldened an ambitious Logan to do something last Friday that was more reckless than she'd ordinarily do.

Was such a practiced veteran at avoiding danger somehow lured off course by the distant possibilities of a brave new world at CBS News where everyone could move up?

Or was it something else? Or was it just the dangerous unfathomability of a crowd at its most explosive moment?

But that too is just noise.

Here, for certain, was what we have in our world taken to calling a "teachable moment." The time has come for we consumers of broadcast news to realize fully what a huge difference there is between those who put themselves in harm's way to find out what's what and the "rodeo clowns" of the demagogue trade.

What happens to the former as they do their job needs to be covered more, not less. Anyone claiming that it's just too much "inside baseball" is out to lunch.

And in this one instance, full of such sound and fury signifying nothing, there's only one person we really have to hear from -- a TV correspondent whose history has proven her to be unafraid of exposing herself to danger and of then saying the difficult thing about it.

We don't need any more noise.

We need Lara Logan herself, somewhere -- "60 Minutes," "CBS Sunday Morning," a written piece somewhere -- telling us what happened with as much specificity as she can while maintaining the dignity she deserves. And telling us what she thinks it means.
http://www.buffalonews.com/entertainment/television/article344660.ece

Yes we do, but I predict that it will not happen, as I strongly suspect that the truth at this point would prove to be embarrassing...
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  0  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:47 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:


I have just returned from a very enjoyable extended lunch with some friends in a familiar and pleasant San Francisco restaurant. Lots of good conversation, excellent pasta and wine.


WTF?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:57 pm
@Endymion,
Looks pretty clear to me. WTFO ?
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:29 pm
@msolga,
If you don't mind - and if you do - many times people also look at political leaders during huge upheavals such as this - and comment on how they handle it.

Seems the pro-Obama contingent is a tad quiet about his response. Seems everyone is. Curious that. They were NEVER so quiet when Bushie was the Dude.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 12:01 am
@georgeob1,
George, I will make this brief as I can:

You have provided no evidence of predictions of the eventual outcomes of the middle east uprisings, despite your previous claims that some misguided folk here (including me) had made such predictions.

Regarding my "highly credulous and unrealistic" opinions ..
(Why am I even bothering to respond to this? Confused )
Personally I blame the ABC news (Australia) , the Guardian, The BBC, the NYT, Haaretz, the Washington, post, New Statesman, the Independent, etc, etc, for my misguided opinions.
Clearly I have been led down the garden path by the lot of them. Silly me!

As to your comment regarding the "odds" of how many demonstrators might meet their deaths (compared to the thousands demonstrating) being "favourable" & proof of my "exaggerated notions" ...
I can't even begin respond to that.
It is so offensive to those struggling for change from oppression. Perhaps they are just collateral damage? Their lives don't count all that much?
Only a small number have died in their struggle for freedom?
Words fail me, George.

And as to your response to my request for further comment from you:

I said:
Quote:
But what do “our” interests have to do with their struggles for self determination, their aspirations for decent lives? Is it reasonable to argue that our interests should override theirs?
I don't believe so.


then this:

Quote:
Tell me about the parts that you find have merit, first, George.
I'd be interested.


Your response:

Quote:
You have already quoted them.

I have just returned from a very enjoyable extended lunch with some friends in a familiar and pleasant San Francisco restaurant. Lots of good conversation, excellent pasta and wine. It is raining like hell here today, though not so disastrously as you have experienced in Australia. I don't entertain unpleasant feelings about anyone.



OK.
Let's just leave it here then.

But for the record; I was having a very pleasant Saturday afternoon (lovely sunny day here) here before this discussion.

My sincere apologies for this digression ... to those of you who actually want to follow events in the middle east (as I do). But I really wanted to respond to George's recent posts. And now I've done that.






msolga
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 12:25 am
@Lash,
Quote:
If you don't mind - and if you do - many times people also look at political leaders during huge upheavals such as this - and comment on how they handle it.

Seems the pro-Obama contingent is a tad quiet about his response. Seems everyone is. Curious that. They were NEVER so quiet when Bushie was the Dude.


So what does this have to do with the current uprisings in the middle east, Lash?

I think the pro & con debates about US administrations are pretty much irrelevant to what the ordinary people in countries like Libya, Egypt, Tunisia Yemen, etc, are actually trying to achieve in their own countries.

I care a whole lot less about US policy for the region than real improvements in the lives of ordinary people in those countries.

Clearly US foreign policy, catching up with recent events, it is well overdue for a radical overhaul .

Do you or don't you support the struggles of the people of Tunisia , Egypt, (etc) or do you think the US agenda in the middle east is more important in the grand scheme of things, Lash?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 12:42 am
I am sure this little announcement was a topic of conversation in Washington today...

Quote:
CNN) -- Egypt has agreed to allow two Iranian warships to cross through the Suez Canal in a move that puts the country's new military regime in a prickly position with its Israeli neighbor.

The post-Hosni Mubarak caretaker government gave the green light to the Iranian warships Friday, state media reported. They are expected to be the first Iranian warships to sail through the Suez since the Islamic republic's 1979 revolution.

The canal is an internal body of water, and as such, Egypt has sovereignty over it. But Egypt also is bound by the 1978 Camp David Accords, which guarantee the right of free passage by ships belonging to Israel and all other nations on the basis of the Constantinople Convention of 1888. Before that, Egypt did not allow Israeli ships to sail through the canal.

Last week, Egypt's newly empowered military government said it would honor all its international treaties. That would include Camp David.

"This is awkward -- at a minimum," said David Schenker, director of the Program on Arab Politics at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/18/egypt.iran.warships/index.html?hpt=Sbin
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 01:39 am
@msolga,
Don't you just love it when a response you've put some considerable time & effort into is treated like this?

The cowardly way (of some in) A2K, it seems.

Never-the-less, I hope it is not totally beyond the realms of possibility to receive some thoughtful responses, anyway?

That would be excellent.

One can live in hope, I guess? Wink
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 08:33 am
@msolga,
Well Olga--a thoughtful response might suggest that the hawks in Mubarak's regime might be watching other ways of dealing with protesters to see if they work.

It might also suggest that the protests in other countries have been empowered by the Egyptian performance and the deaths resulting might be the result of that encouragement.

These nations do have somethings we want. Maybe need. And they have been providing it all these years before they came under your scrutiny. They have cards to play you know.

0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 08:35 am
@msolga,
Ha. It's ALWAYS about the bloody US round here it seems...for the tragically near-sighted.


What you gonna do?


Rolling Eyes

It won't change.

However, joining the myopic, I think the Obama administration has been clear without too much overt bullying.

But it's scary stuff...will the Islamic fundies take over, as they did in Iran?



One can only hope not.


But the US won't be making those decisions.


Bonne chance to the folk hoping for really positive change in the Middle East!!!!!


JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 10:14 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Seems the pro-Obama contingent is a tad quiet about his response. Seems everyone is. Curious that. They were NEVER so quiet when Bushie was the Dude.


Though Obama should receive no passes for his war crimes, drone bombing innocents in Pakistan, for example, the scale between the two is grand canyonesque. Bushie war crimes approached the level of the Nazis, Obama is just your garden variety US president war criminal.

But again, why make this about the US? Actually, I'm still astounded by the hypocrisy, by the delusion, by the sense of badly inflated importance from the very group that is responsible for many if not most of these problems.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 10:24 am
@JTT,
I don't think I would argue against that in a room full of intelligent experts.

There are unintelligent experts btw. One can easily get a certificate of expertise by knowing about 20% of a syllabus. Less with parental influence and a powerful need of the issueing authority to avoid looking like its teaching is hopeless.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 10:49 am
@dlowan,
Quote:
But the US won't be making those decisions.


One could hope that was the case, but the historical precedents are scary. Maybe, just maybe, the much increased openness that has come with the internet will go a long way towards preventing, as it always does, the growth of mold in those dark dank places.

0 Replies
 
 

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