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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 01:18 pm
Sofia wrote:
Muslims are permeating, and changing the culture of the areas they are migrating to.
Quote:


I'm glad that we still have old Inca and Indian culture in America!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 01:22 pm
The Week 1/12/04 Exerpted from article in U.S. news and world report.

The issue has historical roots, but reflects the very contemporary tensions between protecting religious freedom and concern in France that extremism may be growing among the nation's estimated 5 million Muslims. At the heart of the French debate is the country's struggle a century ago to break free of the strong hold of the Roman Catholic Church. Chirac portrays the Muslim practice of wearing a head scarf as challenging the politically sacred separation of church and state. Former French Education Minister Bernard Stasi is more emphatic, asserting the ban is intended to counter "forces that are trying to destabilize the country."
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 01:36 pm
Sofia wrote:
But, France's brand of racism seems to be defensive, rather than offensive.


I'm sure the Nazis would have called their solution to the Jewish "problem" a defensive solution as well.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 01:38 pm
Quote:
Former French Education Minister Bernard Stasi is more emphatic, asserting the ban is intended to counter "forces that are trying to destabilize the country."

Again, this sounds a lot like: "The Jews are infiltrating and destroying Aryan purity," and "Negroes have to learn to stay in their place, or the American way of life will be destroyed."
Again, note my lack of sympathy for your position.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 01:45 pm
hobitbob wrote:

I'm sure the Nazis would have called their solution to the Jewish "problem" a defensive solution as well.


"Most basically, National Socialism aimed at developing a cohesive group. There was an emphasis on the inculcation of selfless behavior and within-group altruism combined with outgroup hostility(MacDonald 1988a, 298-300)" quoted from Genocides Museum: Did the Nazis want to destroy the Jews, Communists or both ...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:02 pm
au's quotation from "The WeeK 1/12/04" is a little bit incorrect, btw.

Bernrad Stasi was "Ministre des Départements et territoires d'Outre-mer" (1973-74), but re education 'only' undersecretary of state "Conseiller technique au cabinet de Maurice Herzog (secrétaire d'Etat à la Jeunesse et aux Sports)" (1963).

That he is named here, has to do with his actual position: he was head of this French expert commission about the separation of church and state in schools.
Bernard Stasi gave its report to Chirac after three months of consultations with religious leaders, teachers, politicians and sociologists. The report also suggested that Yom Kippur - the Jewish Day of Atonement - and Eid al-Fitr, the Muslim day marking the end of Ramadan, be celebrated in state schools.

It also recommended the establishment of a national school for Islamic studies, as well as the provision of alternative meals in public canteens for observant Muslims and Jews.

The report said "conspicuous" signs of observance included the Islamic "veil" - which would include the controversial headscarf worn today by several thousand schoolgirls in France - as well as Jewish kippas and large Christian crosses.

The quotation "asserting the ban is intended to counter "forces that are trying to destabilize the country" " is to be seen not against Muslims especially but against any religious signs in schools.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:08 pm
Do we have any neutron bombs with which we can nuke them damned froggies, but not spoil the wine?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:48 pm
Walter
Quote:
The quotation "asserting the ban is intended to counter "forces that are trying to destabilize the country" " is to be seen not against Muslims especially but against any religious signs in schools.


Walter I tend to believe your interpretation of his statement is incorrect. . There is no doubt that were it not for the Moslems the subject would not have been broached. Of course he included the other two religions, how could he not. However, when he talks of destabilization there is no doubt that was directed at the Moslems. That to me is very clear.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:09 pm
Well, au, then your French is better than mine (with might easily be so :wink: ) or you are referring to another quotation than that from 20 minutes en ligne - Interview : Bernard Stasi, président de la commission indépendante sur la laïcité: "La loi ne sera pas antimusulmans".
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:20 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Sofia wrote:
But, France's brand of racism seems to be defensive, rather than offensive.


I'm sure the Nazis would have called their solution to the Jewish "problem" a defensive solution as well.

My one attempt at de-villianization of France... I didn't place a value on defensive vs. offensive, please note. However, it was a dumb statement. I just didn't want to appear to be 'after the French'...
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:22 pm
Walter
Chirac portrays the Muslim practice of wearing a head scarf as challenging the politically sacred separation of church and state. Former French Education Minister Bernard Stasi is more emphatic, asserting the ban is intended to counter "forces that are trying to destabilize the country."
That is in English I believe. Again IMO the controversy regarding religious symbols would never have come up were it not for the Moslem situation and i do not mean head scarfs.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:24 pm
au1929 wrote:
Walter
Again IMO the controversy regarding religious symbols would never have come up were it not for the Moslem situation and i do not mean head scarfs.

Moslem situation?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:27 pm
Well, au, as siad above: Bernhard Stasi had never been the French Education Minister (although you might say, any French publication lies: thies is mentioned in the 2003 issue of the US Who's Who as well).

And was just referring to the original text of the English "translation" you had quoted.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:32 pm
Walter, wissen sie Franzosiche und Deutsche sprachen sind nichts patriotische? Wink Amerikaner mussen nur "Ami" spreche!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 07:15 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
How do we feel about a woman bus driver who demands to wear a scarf whilst driving? Or a brain surgeon in a burkha?


The juxtaposition exactly illustrates my problem with all of this. These are two entirely different things. A Burqa will inhibit a surgeon from doing her work probably, and will thus put lives at risk. No question there: it should not be allowed. Of course, no one's asking for it to be allowed. It is pure rhetorical hyperbole, an extreme example meant to make every headscarf a symbol of the Afghan burqa, and to make the distaste of things that dont look according to our tastes look like its an issue of public safety, health or order.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
To others its symbolic of the medieval Islamic oppression of women. I cannot understand how people on the liberal/left/progressive end of the political spectrum appear to support Muslim oppression of women. It seems that just because Muslims in general are oppressed by the West and Western sponsored Muslim governments, and that's bad....it follows that Islam and all Islamic tradition must be good. It isnt.


Here the hyperbole is encapsulated in a straw-man argument. Noone is saying that "Islam and all Islamic tradition" is good. I certainly wasn't. I never even said that the headscarf was in any way "good". I wouldn't ask anyone to wear it. But it's like with opinions. What was the famous line? I disagree with every single thing you say, but I will fight for your right to say them?

There are girls who are forced to adhere to religiously-inspired family rules they disagree with - in both Christian and Muslim communities. Any move to support them in their emancipation is good in my book. But there are also proud "Moslima's" who have been demanding the right to wear the headscarf as a question of their personal integrity, which they see the government as infringing on. Have you heard of a government demanding men to dress a certain way? No? Is that coincidence?

Basically, we see patronising minds at work here - white men who want to "save" poor Muslim girls from their cruel, oppressive families. A classic Orientalist fantasy if there ever was one. But the irony is that the desire to "save" those girls from the disempowering old men that are considered to be wrongly telling them what (not) to do, now has many of these girls quite strident about not being told what (not) to do by the disempowering old men in government. That alone should make them think again. If emancipation is the goal, blanket laws that will affect everyone of certain religious convictions are not just wrong out of principle, they are counterproductive at that.

au1929 wrote:
The head scarf is not the true issue. The issue is the influx of Moslems into these European countries. To put it simply it is the symptom not the disease.


I agree - not that the influx of Muslims is a "disease" - but that the public distaste of them is one. The headscarf issue, imho, is mostly a way to give a politically correct tinge to the xenophobic impulse.
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nimh
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 07:27 pm
Sofia wrote:
Hobit and AU are correct. The scarf issue is a small issue that masks the greater issue of racism in Europe. But, France's brand of racism seems to be defensive, rather than offensive.

Muslims are permeating, and changing the culture of the areas they are migrating to. The scarf issue seeks to dissolve (or control) the level of affect they are having on French culture.


Instinctively, I reacted negatively to this post. Then I read it again.

I think basically, Sofia's got it right.

The "headscarf" issue is a thinly veiled (no pun intended) "channeling" of a more general unease with the growing Muslim minorities. Call it burgeoning Islamophobia.

That phobia is wrong, but not ununderstandable. The European cities have changed, and this would create a sense of unease. Or "defensiveness".

Of course, that defensiveness is not going to stop the multiculturalisation of our cities, and acting on it in knee-jerk fashion does nothing to help with the transition. But that some acting on the impulse "to dissolve (or control) the level of affect" the new communities are having was going to happen, is only natural.

In France, because of the typical intensity attached to the church-state issue, this impulse has latched on to the headscarf issue, in a way that for many years seemed incomprehensible elsewhere in Europe. But the use of the issue to somehow put a "check" in place on a supposed 'Islamification' has apparently spread to Germany, Holland too.

One interesting consequence has been that xenophobes who picked up on this French line have had to take a stand against Christian influence as well - for consistency's sake. In the French example itself, for example, I agree with Au; I think Bernard Stasi most certainly intended to convey that he was talking about Muslims, but of course was forced to, formally, be speaking about all religions.

It goes further than mere political expediency, though. I've looked with surprise at how, on the Fortuynist "Livable Rotterdam" forum, militant secularism became rampant. Ever since Fortuyn called Islam "backward" and the favorised argument became that liberal, enlightened Holland should not allow the Muslims to take us back in time, those using it have been forced to denounce those little Protestant parties I mentioned as well, along with Christian schools et cetera.

It is at least an interesting side-effect to see the xenophobes get divided like that, between traditional country-and-tradition nationalists who hold dearly to Christianity, and the new breed standing up against Muslims in name of secularism and the division of church and state ... ;-)

Meanwhile, in my home town:

Quote:
The Utrecht alderman on education, R. Verhulst, wants to introduce school uniforms on primary schools in Utrecht. He thinks he will in this way be able to narrow the differences between students and promote integration. [integration being the political buzz word for how immigrants are supposed to adapt to Dutch culture - nimh]

Schools, according to Verhulst should be allowed to decide themselves whether they opt for introducing a uniform. If they do so, this will automatically mean a prohibition on wearing a headscarf. [..] Verhulst: ,,Wearing a uniform emphasizes the unity and equality. A headscarf doesn't fit with that.''

Verhulst thinks that not only special schools [schools on a confessional (Christian) basis], but public schools, too, should be allowed to draft their own dress codes and forbid wearing a headscarf. At the moment only special schools are allowed to forbid headscarves.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 08:55 am
Nimh

I must congratulate you on your recent posts. Especially since you write in English...thanks.

You probably think I'm a militant secularist or Fortuynist. Well I don't know enough about Fortuyn, and I don't like to be thought of as a militant, but I certainly believe in the division between church and state.

And I find it quite shocking to think that governments from USA to Iran are being influenced (pulled back imo) by a primitive religiosity. I'm not so naive as to think that banishing religion would solve all the problems of the world, but then it wouldn't be a bad first step either. But before we can even think about doing that, we have to recognise that religion is not part of the solution its part of the problem.

The Wahabbists blame the subjugation of the Muslims, not on Islam holding them back compared with Western civilisation, but because in their view Islam has not been applied in the pure form as it was meant to be 1000 years or so ago. They are going in exactly the wrong direction. Nearly all religious people are always looking back to a mythological past of their own making, and the ones who dare to look forward do so with an apocalyptic grin on their faces. There are two types of religious people imo, the deluded and the dangerously deluded...don't get me on religion....this is about head scarves.

I'm against Church bells deafening me on a Sunday morning too.

Do what you want in private, but dont fly planes into buildings or wake up the neighbourhood with bells in the name of religion. Ok better now, calm....deep breath calm...

Back to our burkha'd surgeon. Ok that might have been a straw man or woman. I've never considered myself xenophobic, but maybe I am to a certain extent. [But I have a charming couple of South African Boer extraction living next door, they seem ok despite their peculiar accent. Oh and the ox waggon].

But regarding the bus driving woman. Does she have the right to wear a scarf? (not a veil of course) I would actually support that more than a student at school, despite the obvious health/safey issues.

Of course all would be solved (certainly in Holland) if the school uniform for girls reverted to head scarves long skirts and clogs. I'm sure it would be very popular among the Dutch youth of today. Happy weekend.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:16 am
Quote:
But there are also proud "Moslima's" who have been demanding the right to wear the headscarf as a question of their personal integrity, which they see the government as infringing on. Have you heard of a government demanding men to dress a certain way? No? Is that coincidence?


I forgot to comment on this. Again I have to remind you its school girls wearing the hajib in school that is at issue. They can wear as much or as little as they like outside of school. I don't understand how the government is infringing any personal integrity by asking students to conform to the school dress code.
Regarding dress rules for men, where there is no distinction between the religious law and the secular law in places like Afghanistan under the Taliban, then men were expected (demanded?) to wear a turban, grow a beard and dress according to rules every bit as ludicrous as those for women.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:18 am
I still say we should just nuke them snail eaters . . . but not until we secure the wine . . .
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:27 am
He boss - although I don't drink wine wine, I like snails!http://www.greet2k.com/humour/just4fun/thumbs/itali1.gif
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