Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

The head scarve is just a response to a greater problem.

http://www.iht.com/articles/124063.htm

You shoulda seen what I wore to school!

But then, we havent had school uniforms since ... forever. Ever since the sixties kids have pretty much been allowed to wear whatever to school.

Oh, I am reminded of one thing that came up as an issue. A few years ago you had a lot of "gabbers" (from gabba house, or hard techno), all with shaved heads and Aussie tracksuits, and some of them were quite nationalist. They had this trend of wearing a little Dutch flag on their .. sleeve or something? Some teachers tried to act against that ... but it didnt go anywhere.

(British skins used to wear UK-flag t-shirts and stuff, right? But then, so did punks, and they didnt mean any nationalism with it ...)

Pheonix

We are specifically talking about schoolchildren.

You say




None of the above are acceptable in British state schools. I don't know about America.

Personally I don't have a problem with lime green hair. But I do have a problem when a Muslim family (in a middle class area) bring home a live sheep in the boot (trunk) of their car and slaughter it in the gutter. This might be acceptable in Saudi Arabia, but not Hampstead. Leaving aside the animal cruelty issue, it's an example of the imposition of a religious custom on the secular public. And so in a less dramatic way is wearing the hajib in school imo.

Its not a question of curtailing someone else's freedom to preserve ones own. Its a question of abiding by common standards in public which the general public find acceptable. Do what you want in private providing you do no harm. But if its the law of the land as it is in France, that no overt religious symbolism is displayed in state schools, then obey it or use the democratic process to get the law changed.

The first time I saw comedien Steve Martin on television (about 3 decades ago?) I laughed my head off when he said, "Do you suppose if Jesus had died in an electric chair Christians would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks?"

Actually, I've read that the cross was a spiritual symbol long before Christ. Who would know if that's really so? So was the swastika (supposedly) though the Nazis squared the edges, which were softly swirling, much like a sideways "S" shape. Made it harsh & ugly.

Oh, that is a horse (or a sheep) of another color. If I saw someone do THAT, I would call the police. But what does that have to do with wearing scarves?

All acceptable in Dutch schools. Good question: what about French schools?



So there's two solutions: forbid it - or create places where they can do it safely and according to the laws on hygiene etc, without bothering anyone. The latter doesnt impose on others' freedoms (well, barring the sheep's), whereas the former prohibits a significant part of the population to act on their basic beliefs.



From what I understood, it will be a new law - i.e., "the general public" is gradually imposing a new common standard on what is acceptable - one that affects the freedom of a significant part of the population to wear garments of their choice. Hence the hullaballoo. The discussion's been raging forever, but with proponents and opponents of a ban among the white French, too - it's not like they came into the country and signed a paper saying, "I know that I won't be allowed to wear a headscarf".

Nimh

Halal meat. There are strict animal cruelty laws in this country. In my opinion the halal method of slaughter is cruel. [you may say no more cruel than any other method...but thats another argument]. I have to accept the halal method of slaughter (an infringement of my desire to live in a country free of undue animal suffering) because a minority demand an exception from the law because of their particular religious customs.

From AU's link



I find this kind of Europe bashing by the Americans quite breathtaking. For the American crusaders who are killing Muslims all over the world to complain that Muslims are not allowed freedom of religious expression in Europe is hypocritical in the extreme.

Of course Arab and Muslim Americans have basked in the the warm sunshine of American tolerance, particularly since 911.

I repeat, we are not talking about the rights of Muslim women to wear whatever they want in public. They can look as demure or as ridiculous or provacative as they wish as far as I'm concerned. We are specifically talking about Muslim girls at state schools.

How do we feel about a woman bus driver who demands to wear a scarf whilst driving? Or a brain surgeon in a burkha?

Steve
The head scarf is not the true issue. The issue is the influx of Moslems into these European countries. To put it simply it is the symptom not the disease.

Exactly. Didn't people wear crosses and stars of David before this whole scarf issue came up?

Nimh a few points

Gabbers: sorry can't help you. And neither can Mrs Steve 41oo who just said "no one was into that at our school"

She also confirmed that piercings are not allowed at her school ...er should make a point here that she teaches there and not a student.... That girls will try to get away with shortest possible skirts until they are warned, and that any limb showing a tattoo must be amputated before the lesson. (!)



surely you meant baaa...ing the sheep. Anyway it does. It curtails my freedom to live in a country where undue suffering to animals is forbidden.



As I understand it, its a law specifically designed to strengthen existing law. The division between church and state (and keeping religious symbolism out of state schools) originates from the French revolution.

They have found it necessary to re inforce the legislation to make that clear. I don't see the problem in asking a girl to remove a scarf in class. You are not asking her to renounce Islam. She is not required by Islam to wear the hajib in any case. It is merely a symbol. To some a symbol of modesty. To others its symbolic of the medieval Islamic oppression of women. I cannot understand how people on the liberal/left/progressive end of the political spectrum appear to support Muslim oppression of women. It seems that just because Muslims in general are oppressed by the West and Western sponsored Muslim governments, and that's bad....it follows that Islam and all Islamic tradition must be good. It isnt.


Au When you talk about an influx of people being like a disease, it sounds like you want to eradicate it. I don't. I want people to integrate, to show mutual respect, and to live and prosper in a multicultural society. But tolerance and understanding must work both ways. I don't want someone to be discriminated against on grounds of race sexual orientation or gender or religion. But I expect that person if he is sending his daughter to be educated in a state school at state expense, to accept the school standards regarding dress. And if he doesn't, he is free to pay for private education.

I've heard that in a conciliatory move, Chirac will also ask that Catholic schoolgirls not wear panties.

Steve


Steve that was just figuratively speaking. I was not calling people a disease nor was I inferring that they should be eradicated. To clarify if further clarification is required. Scarfs are not the real issue.

Then what is the "real issue?"

Correct, this thread is about Chirac having banned Muslim head scarfs.


Since 1945, we don't have a school uniform here, and pupils can litterally wear what they want - which started the discussion, how sexy dressed girls affect the learning of boys.

Generally, school headmistresses/-masters can 'order' "decent clothing".

(This might be -perhapd: is- very different in private schools. [Although they don't wear school uniforms there neither.])

I move that all the teen hotties dress like Britney!

hobitbob
The influx of Moslems into Christian nations. Call it a clash of cultures.

Or, call it racism, which it seems to be.

I never knew of a particular class of young female who would be out of her knickers faster -- that ol' hogwash about catholic girls is just a fairy tale. I'd rate Baptist Ministrers' daughters as the only young women lower on the "fastest to disrobe" scale than catholic girls.

Hobit and AU are correct. The scarf issue is a small issue that masks the greater issue of racism in Europe. But, France's brand of racism seems to be defensive, rather than offensive.

Muslims are permeating, and changing the culture of the areas they are migrating to. The scarf issue seeks to dissolve (or control) the level of affect they are having on French culture.

Hobitbob
There goes that old standby when all else fails. play the race card. That will scare them, no one wants to be called a racist. Could it possibly the cultural and religious differences.