Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

lord ellpus :
yes , that seems to happen around the world .
i should have added that it was mainly young muslim women (all university educated and some recent converts to islam) that were loudest in stating that "full face cover" is an absolute requirement to be a true muslim women .
i have met a muslim women who is the executive director of the canadian council of muslim women . i have never seen her wear a full face cover , not even a scarf . of course , she is considered a traitor - or worse .
she has an interesting article in our local weekend newspaper called :
"celebrate instead of discriminate .
participating in other faiths' holidays helps foster tolerance " .
she likes to celebrate all religious occasions , diwali , sukkoth , eid ... and is looking forward to celebrate christmas with friends .
when a couple of years ago , there was a movement to bring sharia law into ontario , she was one of the most outspoken opponents .
i am sure her action helped avoid bringing sharia law to ontario , but i also know that it brought her many attacks from some - so called - muslim leaders , who attacked her on many public TV appearance .
hbg

...SHARIA LAW IN ONTARIO ?...

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Steve 41oo wrote:

If they establish the right for muslim women to wear the veil its a victory for islam.

If they fail to establish the right for muslim women to wear the veil it proves muslims are oppressed.....and its a victory for islam.

There is unfortunately a war going on. The Christian west is not at war with Islam, but certain islamists most certainly are at war with western culture. imho

I see all the Western propoganda has gotten to you. The poor innocent, civilized West always being undermined by the barbaric East. What a load of bullshit.

Then why does the US continue to link Islam with Facism, etc. and then proceeds to invade Muslim land over some claims of WMD, and yet refuses to attack N. Korea when they already proved to the World that they have WMD? I guess unless the country has rich oil reserves, there's no need to invade. And then he thinks he's been given a prophecy by God to revive the Crusades against the Muslims?

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Raul
Out of curiosity I asK.
Since the moslems abhor western society and do not want to assimilate. Why do the continue to flow into the EU and the US?

Note: That is just the opposite for immigrants from all other nations around the globe.

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Raul-7 wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
If they establish the right for muslim women to wear the veil its a victory for islam.

If they fail to establish the right for muslim women to wear the veil it proves muslims are oppressed.....and its a victory for islam.

There is unfortunately a war going on. The Christian west is not at war with Islam, but certain islamists most certainly are at war with western culture. imho

I see all the Western propoganda has gotten to you. The poor innocent, civilized West always being undermined by the barbaric East. What a load of bullshit.

Then why does the US continue to link Islam with Facism, etc. and then proceeds to invade Muslim land over some claims of WMD, and yet refuses to attack N. Korea when they already proved to the World that they have WMD? I guess unless the country has rich oil reserves, there's no need to invade. And then he thinks he's been given a prophecy by God to revive the Crusades against the Muslims?

By "he" I assume you mean the President of the United States of America, one George W Bush?

Bush is an oil man. He understands these things. Western civilised society needs oil. Unfortunately its running out, and whats left tends to be in the middle east, where again unfortunately, most people are muslim. We are not at war with Islam. But we need our hydrocarbon fix, and nothing is going to get in the way of that. If we are killing muslims its because they are obstructing our extraction of oil and gas. Its nothing personal, and its nothing against Islam. We bend over backwards to accommodate Muslim communities in the West. I just wish it was reciprocated by Middle eastern countries interms of freedom of worship for christians or zoroastrians. Or people of the Ba'athi faith.

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flushed wrote: Perhaps, ci. I wondered if it was fear of the unfamiliar.

Yet, it also made me angry somehow. I could not see her eyes, her face, her head, her body. All I could see were her hands.

As a woman, it seemed like she was making a very bold statement. And it was one I did not like, on a gut level.

Your response is understandable. After all, there are Muslim women who do not live under the burka or total coverings found common in Arab countries - or most countries around the world. Even in Iran, many Muslim women wear western-style clothes. I think you're reacting to the loss of freedom for Muslim women. Some Muslim women still prefer to wear all that covering, because that's all they've known for all their lives.

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Maybe it's because their husbands don't want them to become 'eye candy' for the rest of the city and it's the norm. for some bedouin people to wear burka's, such as in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Oman.

The only thing Islam requires is for women to wear head-covering, leaving only their faces, hands and feet unconevered. At least that you appreciate their true beauty in their faces rather than looking at them as sex objects where the more unveiling the dress the better. And I know you're probably going to say what about the men, they're required to lower their gaze.

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Yes, CI, it was the feeling of her loss of freedom and identity.
It simply made me angry to see a woman - out in public, in freedom, surrounded by women of all sorts and kinds - silenced and shrouded.

There are plenty of Muslim women in Winnipeg, however most I have met wear a simple head scarf or western dress. Some wear traditional clothing (some of it I find quite beautiful and good for our summers! Smile

but it is rare to see a woman in burka or niqab. It wouldn't be practical for work, above all else!

Raul-7,
That's a matter of opinion! Laughing

Each muslim seem to have their own interpretation of what Islam requires in terms of dress.
I can respect modesty in clothing.
My personal objection is with hardliners who believe that Islam requires a woman to go to extremes in dress: no face showing, no eyes.
I see that as oppressive. I find it difficult to believe that it is necessary in order to practice ones religion and 'not be a sex object'.

Apparently, plenty of canadian muslims agree, and I am thankful for that.

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here is a picture of alia hogben (centre) .
she is the executive director of the canadian council of muslim women .
i have met her and found her to be a very inspiring person .
she doesn't see why a muslim woman needs to wear a headscarf or veil - and i am sure she is a very devout muslim .
she was active in having a mosque build in our communty and remains an active member of the muslim society , while also being a very active member of the local society outside the mosque .
hbg

http://post.queensu.ca/~jameswc/Alia-Murray%20Hogbens2.jpg

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here is a picture of alia hogben (centre) .
she is the executive director of the canadian council of muslim women .
i have met her and found her to be a very inspiring person .
she doesn't see why a muslim woman needs to wear a headscarf or veil - and i am sure she is a very devout muslim .
she was active in having a mosque build in our communty and remains an active member of the muslim society , while also being a very active member of the local society outside the mosque .
hbg

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here is a picture of alia hogben (centre) .
she is the executive director of the canadian council of muslim women .
i have met her and found her to be a very inspiring person .
she doesn't see why a muslim woman needs to wear a headscarf or veil - and i am sure she is a very devout muslim .
she was active in having a mosque build in our communty and remains an active member of the muslim society , while also being a very active member of the local society outside the mosque .
hbg

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I'm sure Alia Hogben is a very nice and good woman. If one accepts that religion has a place in society (which I dont btw...it should be a private matter) then Hogben is to be encouraged. Unfortunately the political islamists who are at war with us no doubt see her as a traitor and apostate...deserving of the usual punishment.

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It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Alia H. She seems like my type of lady. Smile

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Steve 41oo wrote:

I'm sure Alia Hogben is a very nice and good woman. If one accepts that religion has a place in society (which I dont btw...it should be a private matter) then Hogben is to be encouraged. Unfortunately the political islamists who are at war with us no doubt see her as a traitor and apostate...deserving of the usual punishment.

No, I don't. But there's no reason for her to attack Islam's ordering of the veil covering. If she doesn't want to wear it, fine - but there's no need to try to outlaw it. May Allah guide her.

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raul wrote :
"But there's no reason for her to attack Islam's ordering of the veil covering " .

alia hogben and many other islamic scholars are simply saying that
the islamic religion does not require women to wear a veil .
they are not even saying that women should not wear a veil ; they are only stating that it is not a requirement of the islamic religion .
they simply dispute , that "islam orders the veil covering " - as you put it .

whether a muslim woman wears or does not wear a veil is not what determines whether she is a muslim or not , a/t their reading of the relevant islamic teaching .

while i'm not a muslim , i wonder why not wearing "a veil/a piece of cloth" is the determining factor in turning a muslim women into a non-muslim women .

perhaps let me ask a simple question of raul :
would a good and true muslim woman not be recognized as a muslim (a/t all muslim teachings) if she DOES NOT wear a veil .
hbg

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hamburger wrote:

raul wrote :
perhaps let me ask a simple question of raul :
would a good and true muslim woman not be recognized as a muslim (a/t all muslim teachings) if she DOES NOT wear a veil .
hbg

No, there are plenty. But I don't like these hypocrites who wear it when they go into the Mosque to pray and as soon as they exit they take it off. What does this tell you? Why don't they pray without if isn't a must for women?

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Islam does not require a veil, as you know damned well. These a tribal prejudices imposed on Islam, along with female genital mutilation, and female infanticide.

Your position is the hypocrisy.

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Setanta wrote:

Islam does not require a veil, as you know damned well. These a tribal prejudices imposed on Islam, along with female genital mutilation, and female infanticide.

Your position is the hypocrisy.

How would you know. You buy into the media's claims like everyone else.

Obligation of Hijab as Stated in Qur'an

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (jalabib) close round them (when they go abroad)..." (Quran 33:59)

Ibn Rushd in Bidaya al-Mujtahid (1:83) said that this verse has been adduced as proof that no part of a woman's body should be evident to those who are not among the prohibited degrees of relationship (mahram) or her husband. Al-Qurtubi in his commentary on the verse said that the jilbab is the cloak that conceals all of the body including the head.

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms..." (Quran 24:31) "only that which is apparent" applies to women's face and hands.

"... And when you ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a veil. . ." (Quran 33:53) Al-Qurtubi said in commentary of this verse: "The consensus of Muslims is that the genitals and backside constitute nakedness for men and women, as well as all of woman except her face and hands, but some disagreed about the latter two." This means the consensus of Muslims included them in the definition of her nakedness based on verse 33:59 and the hadith cited below.

Obligation of Hijab as Stated in Hadith

Among proofs for the veil in the Sunna are the following authentic hadiths (traditional reports) of the Prophet - (s):

"Ayesha (r) reported that Asma' the daughter of Abu Bakr (r) came to the Messenger of Allah (s) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asma'! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands." [Abu Dawud]

Stop trying to teach me what my religion says.

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Raul-7 wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Islam does not require a veil, as you know damned well. These a tribal prejudices imposed on Islam, along with female genital mutilation, and female infanticide.

Your position is the hypocrisy.

How would you know. You buy into the media's claims like everyone else.

Obligation of Hijab as Stated in Qur'an

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (jalabib) close round them (when they go abroad)..." (Quran 33:59)

Ibn Rushd in Bidaya al-Mujtahid (1:83) said that this verse has been adduced as proof that no part of a woman's body should be evident to those who are not among the prohibited degrees of relationship (mahram) or her husband. Al-Qurtubi in his commentary on the verse said that the jilbab is the cloak that conceals all of the body including the head.

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms..." (Quran 24:31) "only that which is apparent" applies to women's face and hands.

"... And when you ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a veil. . ." (Quran 33:53) Al-Qurtubi said in commentary of this verse: "The consensus of Muslims is that the genitals and backside constitute nakedness for men and women, as well as all of woman except her face and hands, but some disagreed about the latter two." This means the consensus of Muslims included them in the definition of her nakedness based on verse 33:59 and the hadith cited below.

Obligation of Hijab as Stated in Hadith

Among proofs for the veil in the Sunna are the following authentic hadiths (traditional reports) of the Prophet - (s):

"Ayesha (r) reported that Asma' the daughter of Abu Bakr (r) came to the Messenger of Allah (s) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asma'! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands." [Abu Dawud]

Stop trying to teach me what my religion says.

You are simply peddling the version of Islam which conforms to the prejudices which you cherish. You are providing the interpretations of those with whom you choose to agree.

What's your evidence that the Quran condones female genital mutilation and female infanticide?

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By the way, if the Prophet pointed to the face and hands, your hadith does not support the wearing of a veil which covers the face.

Stop trying to peddle your particularist religious bigotry to me.

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Who said female genital mutilation and female infanticide are part of Islam? Islam condones the killing of any infants. And Muslim women aren't required or were never asked to cut their genitals off. This only takes place in some parts of Africa.

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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

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