THE FRENCH AND HEADSCARVES
having finished reading "why sixty million frenchmen can't be wrong" i am convinced that the french and french government fear that muslims may not want to assimillate into THE STATE. it seems of paramount importance to the french (central) government that it have ultimate power over its citizens and that NO intermediate power come between the government and the people UNLESS APPROVED OF BY THE GOVERNMENT. ... does anyone have any connection to a french friend who might be willing to join able2know or at least give a french opininon on this subject ? ... the following article from the international herald tribune throws some different light on this subject >>>
ASSIMILATION
Quote:I would like to take this opportunity to note that asking the Brits for an objective view of the French is rather like asking the Poles for an objective view of the Russians . . . not bloodly likely.
Tres amusee mon ami. Et les Allemandes?
Edited to correct French
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Tres amusee mon ami. Et les Allemandes?
Le 22 janvier 2004 était la date du 41ème anniversaire du Traité de l'Elysée - le commençemant de l'amitié franco-allemande en temps modernes :wink:
An open letter from Pakistani-English-Dutch jurist Naema Tahir to her Muslim 'sisters' ... She seems to simultameously mock them and support them, in a pleasantly irreverant take on it all. It's funny, and kinda interesting. (I wonder about the headline, though, whether it's hers or the newspaper's).
[My translation from the Dutch - it appeared on the opinion page of the NRC Handelsblad, on Saturday - rather a bad translation. She writes complicated, florid Dutch, hard to translate.]
Quote:The power of the headscarf and the imam, the father and the brat on the corner
Muslima, last Saturday you have demonstrated in France, with thousands of your sisters, against the proposed law to forbid the wearing of an Islamic headscarf on public schools. You are itching until the cancelled demonstration in The Hague can be planned another time, so that you can show in Holland, too, that you can stand up for your rights. For your freedom, liberty and fraternity!
Pots full of ink are meanwhile being spent writing about this most visible symbol of your religion. You have achieved that it has perhaps become one of the most complicated items of clothing of our time. In all of the public space, like schools and training institutes, your sisters are exacting [the right to] wear a headscarf. It must feel really powerful, my sister.
Muslima, I feel called upon to write you, because I know what you're going through. I know that wearing a headscarf feels good. As a teenager I lived for two years in an Islamic country, among my Muslim brothers and sisters. Every day I covered my head and body in public. It was not a choice, like you have one here, it was an obligation. Resisting was of no use, nobody would have listened. Every day on my way to school, walking through the crowded streets, my head, hair and the curves of my breasts, belly and backside were covered. They didn't exist, for the outside world. They were not allowed to be looked at, so as not to soil the family honour.
But it didn't help. Every day I had to take the gazes of men, which instilled fear in me and made me feel ashamed for everything that made me a woman. With my eyes turned strictly straight ahead, I acted as if there were no men and I began to deny myself.
But slowly I learned to pull the power back to myself. My pious 'me' made way for a freeer 'me'. With strands of my hair nonchalantly escaping from underneath my sensually draped headscarf, lipstick applied, and ravenblack eyes accentuated by eyeliner, I learned to enjoy the forbidden attention on the street. When a stranger's glance 'accidentally' met my eyes, I looked away bashfully, with a hint of drama. As if I wanted to say, by doing that: "I know that I am the source of seduction".
Radiating pure innocence I sought for ways to make myself more desirable. My headscarf became a culturally determined expression of how I got to express myself in a seductive sense. What had seemed tiresome excursions at first, now became the highlights of the day. Also, this way I could avenge myself on my uncles and nephews, who in their tight Western jeans could sternly dictate "their women" how they should dress and behave, while they didn't restrain themselves in any way.
You will recognize this of course, moslima. I can see you standing there, on the street with your headscarf in soft silk that accentuates your naked jawline. Your fine features and speaking eyes ask to be caressed by yearning eyes from top to toe. Mysterious and desirable, with the purity of a virgin, you are the true queen bee, for whom men do what they are made for: to try to please you. All the attention you're scoring only makes you stronger vis-a-vis your non-headscarf-wearing Muslim sister.
I do not deny that the headscarf is more than an instrument of power and seduction. Your muslim identity is manifested. You are making a 'statement' against the Western society. You are resisting the 'peer pressure' from your circle of friends. And as main prize: the imam, your brother, your father and the "ho"-yelling-brat-on-the-corner are kept at bay. And all of that just because you allay your sexuality most superficially with that wafer-thin headscarf, the see-through, so-called holy sign that this category of men at least still understands.
But I would keep this real reason for wearing a headscarf to yourself for a little longer, my sister. Otherwise you won't make it in your fight against the laïcité. Better take the tack of religious freedom, when it comes to your right to wear a headscarf, and then the guilt-aware secularists will give you ample leeway.
And the muslim man? The man who thinks you're too emotional to have equal rights, will view with astonishment how you become his superior in your fight against western legislation. Let that muslim man just think that you're propagating 'his' culture and religion. I would bet that the more your sisters move among men in general longer - and thus not just among muslims anymore - the more vague the difference between muslim men and non-muslim men will become.
The little scarf will then slowly lose its significance - if you have to watch out for both types in the same way anyway, why would you then endlessly hold on to the way which only muslim men ask of you? Then the scarves will go off again. That won't make muslima's any less muslim. Its just that they will then feel free to determine themselves how they believe. That will take a while still, though, and we'll all just have to go through that - laïcité or no laïcité.
CHIRAQ BANS HEADSCARVES
walter : i hope you enjoy this tale of french-german love. ............................................................................... SIGNING OF THE FRENCH-GERMAN FRIENDSHIP TREATY BY PRESIDENT DE GAULLE AND CHANCELLOR ADENAUER IN 1963
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the french journalist pierre viansson-ponte who attented the signing of the treaty reports an (amusing) incident that should help explain the love affair between the french and the germans. he writes in his book "koenig charles und sein hofstaat" -"king charles and his court-state" : dr. adenauer is probably the only male who can claim the honour of having been kissed by president de gaulle. this happened at the time of the signing of the french-german friendship treaty. the document had been signed, the ink had not yet dried. the president and the chancellor turned to each other and looked each other in the eye. suddenly de gaulle stepped forward, put out his mighty arms, pulled in his "respectable" stomach (i guess we'd say, he pulled in his gut - doesn't sound right for de gaulle, though ), bent over to press the skinny chancellor against his chest and placed two rather loud sounding kisses (must have been some real smackers !) on the cheeks of the chancellor. the onlookers were holding their breath. tears, honest tears filled the eyes of the german chancellor. his hands were trying to find the hands of his FRENCH FRIEND ! ... i remember some years later we were visiting my parents in germany. as we were saying good-bye, my father - who usually would be joking around on such occasions - "pulled a de gaulle" on me. rather surprised i said : "dad, don't we usually just shake hands ?" his reply : "de gaulle and adenauer did it; it should be all right for us too.". so, i guess it is fair to say that de gaulle and dr. adenauer rekindled a love affair. hbg
Why France values its religious neutrality
Guy Coq IHT
Monday, February 2, 2004
Symbolism and scarves
ARCUEIL, France With France on the verge of passing a law that would prevent Muslim girls from wearing their head scarves in class, Americans are asking why the French are so attached to secularism.
I always want to respond to this question by asking another, a version of one asked by Montesquieu nearly three centuries ago: How can one be French?
Our uneasiness about head scarves and other religious symbols in schools is a result of our long, often painful history. If we bow to demands to allow the practice of religion in state institutions, we will put France's identity in peril.
The French word that is closest to secularism, laïcité, was invented in the late 19th century to express several ideas. Laïcité includes, foremost, tolerance.
Tolerance had actually been around for a while. It was first instituted in 1598 under the Edict of Nantes, which allowed Protestants to practice their faith and ended our Wars of Religion. But the state and the Roman Catholic Church were so intertwined that tolerance wasn't enough. We had to take away the church's power to oppress minorities and make law.
For that, France had to go further than other countries in separating matters of state and matters of religion. The most emphatic expression of this desire came in our Revolution of 1789. The French people didn't just depose a monarch - they also took aim at the Catholic Church's domination of society, stripping the church of its property and demanding that the clergy acknowledge the authority of the state.
In the century after the Revolution, however, the Catholic Church found ways to regain power. A concordat between the papacy and Napoleon in 1801 gave the church a privileged position as the majority religion of France. The church took control of education and provided priests as teachers.
As monarchs, emperors and republics succeeded one another during the 1800's, the church inserted itself into politics by joining with forces that were enemies of the rights of man and the republican ideas of the Revolution. The leaders of the Third Republic, in the 1880's, saw that for the republic to establish itself, it had to wrest control of the schools from the church. Prime Minister Jules Ferry founded the public school system, which barred priests as teachers and took over the job of transmitting common values and the sense of social unity - in short, forming the citizens of the republic - without reference to religion.
The next step, the ending of Napoleon's concordat, came in 1905. By separating church and state - instituting a republic that was neutral toward all religions, and without a national religion - France finally realized the aims of the Revolution. This is laïcité, and it has worked well.
But the laïcité of schools has been eroded by the intrusion of religious symbols, prompted by an excess of individualism, that philosophy so revered by Americans. The need for the law against wearing religious symbols in schools that Parliament will debate on Tuesday reveals the regrettable waning of this French tradition.
More than ever, in this time of political-religious tensions, school secularism is for us the foundation of both civil peace and the integration of people of all beliefs into the Republic.
If the French hold laïcité so dearly, it is because that principle, as much as the republic and democracy, is essential for a cohesive society. Each nation has its bedrock principles. One could just as easily ask, what does it mean to be American? Meanwhile, more and more, there is talk of a Europe-wide laïcité. More and more, European democracies are multireligious. They no longer have a base of common religious tradition. Instead, they are constructing social guidelines built around ethical, universal values like justice and liberty of conscience.
The question that France is posing to the world is this: Can one progress toward true respect of these universal values without relying on some sort of "laicity"? To disarm fundamentalism, notably Islamic fundamentalism, can we give up laïcité, which builds a neutral space for all of us?
Guy Coq is the author of a book about secularism in France. This article was translated by The New York Times from the French.
Great article, Au.
Thanks.
nimh
Thanks for translating that article from the Dutch.
The writer seems to be saying that the real reason Muslim women like to wear the hajib is that it makes them feel sexy. That behind traditional Islamic dress code, women can play little games (if they so wish) of flirtation.
I never thought about this angle. And I'm pretty sure if the imans and the mullahs thought it, the hajib etc would be banned instantly. :wink:
I appreciate AU's article as well, i've been trying to get across in this thread that France's history from the revolution onward lead to their current attitude toward religious symbolism in public areas which are state sponsored, or under the control of the state. Walter even posted the 1905 law. It hasn't seemed to sink in. If it took AU's article to make the point clear to others, than it's good that he posted it, and better that others should now understand.
Well said Setanta
I think this thread is drawing to a conclusion. The French are right to ban the hajib in state schools. Anyone who disagrees will be shot.
I've just had a dust-up with some idiot at one of our customers' accounting offices, being told that i will have to submit one invoice for the fourth time, and another for the third time--cost centers, payment cards, lines of accountability . . . oh my achin' ass. By now, i've wasted so much of my time on this nonsense, two simple one hour service calls, that we're about to lose money on them.
I really, truly want to shoot someone, and as i can't shoot anyone in our customers' accounts payable offices . . .
ok set, just make sure thay are properly attired whn you pul the trigger
HEADSCARVES
here is an article you don't want to miss ! since neckties are considered a religious symbol in iran (the sign of the cross), the writer suggests that neckties may also have to be banned in french schools . now that would be a sensible move ! anybody in the market for some hardly used neckties ? ANYBODY ? read all about it >>>
BAN NECKTIES ?
Thks for article Hamburger man. Chopped it up and added red comments
Ignoring the advice of many, the French government has just presented to the parliament a draft bill to prevent women from wearing the so-called "Islamic" headgear, or foulard, at state-owned schools.
Its supported by many too. They're not women. They are school children.
It has divided France's Muslim community into pro- and anti-hijab camps.
they were divided before
To win support for the ban on the foulard, Chirac dispatched emissaries to Arab capitals to seek fatwas from Muslim theologians. In one instance, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy traveled to Cairo to secure a fatwa from the rector of al-Azhar, Muhammad Said al-Tantawi. This was a bizarre scene: a minister from a major Western democracy asking a Muslim mufti to give his blessing to a law that is supposed to defend French "secular values."
Which he successfully got from the mufti tufty guy.
Should the colorful headgear worn by Berber and black African ladies also be banned?
Its school kids I keep tellin ya
There is also the fluorescent horse-hair wig, including a blonde version, marketed by Iranian designers, that gives a woman a second head to expose to public view without revealing her own hair.
ditto
And what would happen if Muslims of the Sitri sect, originally from Baluchistan, appeared in their traditional gear, which consists of a white drape that covers the entire body of a man or a woman from head to toe, leaving only two holes for the eyes? (The Sitri rule is applied to both sexes from the age of four.)
It should of course be made compulsory in all of France with immediate effect. Only exception for people with written govt. permission to use their arms.
In a gesture of fake impartiality, the new law will also ban "large" Jewish skullcaps and "big" crosses. But what do "large" and "big" mean in this context? Would we have special agents measuring skullcaps and crosses at school gates?
Dont be silly. A skull cap is either worn or not. A big cross prominently displayed is not acceptable. The school decides using something unheard of in the Muslim world...common sense.
And what about neckties? They are banned in Iran as "a sign of the cross" and in Saudi Arabia as a Zoroastrian symbol, smuggled into Islam by Jaafar Barmaki, the Persian vizier of the caliph Harun al-Rashid. Would France want to ban neckties as well?
Now this really makes me laugh. No ties in Iran. But you must allow French girls in French State schools to show their submission to Islam by wearing the hajib. Live and let live eh?
France's Education Minister Luc Ferry has made it clear that the ban could include "some forms of the beard."
But only in primary schools.
What would Ferry do if hundreds of thousands of boys turned out at French schools with long hair, bushy beards, and "ostentatious" turbans?
Laugh I should think.
As Jung observed decades ago, man's ability to invent symbols is limitless. Fighting symbols is, at best, a quixotic endeavor, and, at worst, a symptom of national self-doubt.
Jung said the first bit, not the second. This is intellectual dishonesty. In fact the whole piece is crap. (in my humble and considered opinion)
MAISONS-LAFFITTE, France Maisons-Laffitte is a smart Paris suburb nestling by the Seine. Each weekend its 17th-century chateau attracts newlyweds who use it as a backdrop for photographs of their big day. The main street's gleaming stores proffer fine pastries, handmade cheeses, cosmetics and perfumes, cashmere and necklaces. Along the tree-lined avenues around the chateau, sleek thoroughbred racehorses clip-clop their way to the training track..
There is something timeless in Maison-Laffitte's charm, but this town is not some enclave that is excluded from the wider world. A seemingly unimportant decision about a local high school mirrors France's struggle to reconcile its Catholic heritage, its defense of secularism and the aspirations of its five million Muslims..
Maisons-Laffitte lacks a high school. On mornings during the school year, buses and cars troop eastward across the river to low-rent Sartrouville or south, to tony Saint-Germain-en-Laye, to drop teenagers off at their schools, and repeat the same trip to bring them back in the evening. It has always been a headache, but with just 21,000 people, Maisons-Laffitte cannot muster the demographic clout to get a school built by the Education Ministry..
In November, the big news broke: A brand new high school for 750 students would be built at last, next to the town's lavishly equipped sports center on a tree-lined stretch of river bank. It would not be built by the state but by the Catholic Church, and run with the help of state subsidies..
This halfway-house arrangement has prevailed in France for more than 150 years. Under it, a school run by a religion must adhere to the national education curriculum; it must admit anyone regardless of faith, and the religious component of its teaching be kept minimal and moderate. In exchange, the state pays around 80 percent of the costs, mainly that of teaching staff, leaving parents to pay the difference..
In Maisons-Laffitte's case, the broker of the school deal is the local mayor, Jacques Myard, who is also the area's member in the National Assembly. A prominent defender of the secular state - his book on the question is on sale at the local supermarket and main bookshop - he has pushed for the law banning the Muslim head scarf and other religious symbols from state schools..
Myard is also leading a campaign for tight controls over Muslim schools. Although there are hundreds of Catholic high schools across France, and many Jewish ones, there is only one full-time Muslim high school. The school opened last September after more than eight years of negotiations. Myard is already pressing Education Minister Luc Ferry to investigate its activities, saying he fears the establishment could become a breeding ground for Islamic dogma..
"When you have a private school you have to abide by the program for the lessons," Myard said. "I have been asking the minister of education to check if this Muslim school in Lille is doing this." He added, "My fear is that one day they may teach things that are opposed to French public order.".
Secularist campaigners are outraged..
"What bothers us most is that public money, in other words our taxes, are being used to pay for the running of a religious school. It's not the state's role to get involved in religious matters," protests Sam Ayache, of the Federation of Free Thinkers, a group that defends France's long tradition of secularism..
"Mr. Myard took offense when a Muslim high school was created in northern France, but he's fine when it comes to setting up a Catholic high school in his own constituency.".
The debate over Maisons-Laffitte's school is probably a microcosm of thinking across France. Most French people are guarded toward or suspicious of Islam yet are comfortable to a greater or lesser degree with Catholicism..
So many will accept a local state-supported Catholic school, but balk at plans for a Muslim equivalent..
The pitfalls of this approach are clear. France cannot on the one hand proclaim itself to be a "secular" society, as it is doing with the head-scarf law, and then encourage cozy tie-ups between the state and religion in order to plug the gaps in education. And it makes matters worse to favor one religion over another when it comes to making these deals. The word for this is hypocrisy, and the result among French Muslims can only be resentment and alienation..
The writer is a freelance journalist based in Paris.
A very timely and to-the-point article, Boss . . .
That article seems to miss the point. Is the catholic school going to allow large crosses? Or will it adhere to the state laws regarding religious artefacts in school despite not being state funded? Will it indoctrinate children into Roman Catholicism or will it teach a well rounded syllabus. Will it produce future citizens who feel comfortable with their cultural inheritance and the French Republic?
What matters here is not whether the school is state or privately funded, but whether it provides a good education. Myard is right to point out where a school fails in its primary duty to its pupils.
French vote to ban religious symbols
PARIS - The move reaffirms the French secular ideal but is certain to deepen resentment amongst French Muslims.
http://www.iht.com/articles/129000.htm
Anti-Semitism infuses French debate on scarves
MONTIGNY-LÈS-CORMEILLES, France - Teachers and Jewish groups warned that the problem would not be solved simply by banning religious headgear.
http://www.iht.com/articles/129008.htm
That IHT article emphasises the need to support the secular and republican basis of French state schooling.
Establishing religious schools for various minorities is the road to disaster.
