Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

@FBM,

What you think are difficult questions does not mean that there are no questions more difficult than the ones you ask. By imagining that you are asking difficult questions you are giving yourself a pat on the back and such procedures are always suspect.

Many would say that the questions you are asking are easy ones as they are bound to be if evidence is available to answer them. One is hardly required to think if the answer can be read off an instrument.

Do you know the difference between complicated and complex?

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

What you think are difficult questions does not mean that there are no questions more difficult than the ones you ask.

Where did I make such a claim?

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By imagining that you are asking difficult questions you are giving yourself a pat on the back and such procedures are always suspect.

Oh. And believing that the almighty, supreme creator of everything created the whole, unimaginably vast universe just for one species on one speck of dust in one insignificant, remote backwater region of one nondescript spiral galaxy is humble? To pray to that creator to grant your wishes because you have a special, personal, one-on-one relationship with him and that he would be willing to suspend or amend his Divine Plan just for you...that's humble? Who's eaten up with self-importance here? Wink

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Many would say that the questions you are asking are easy ones as they are bound to be if evidence is available to answer them.

Who are those "many" and how do they even know what questions I'm asking? Do you know what questions I'm asking? No. You're just making it up because you can't think of any better rhetoric.

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One is hardly required to think if the answer can be read off an instrument.

Ah, the old argument from ignorance of what science is about and how it's done. You think all scientists do is read instruments?

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Do you know the difference between complicated and complex?

No, somehow I made it to graduate school without learning how to use a dictionary. Please enlighten me. Laughing

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And at least instruments can be seen, unlike certain alleged entities...

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@FBM,

Quote:

Oh. And believing that the almighty, supreme creator of everything created the whole, unimaginably vast universe just for one species on one speck of dust in one insignificant, remote backwater region of one nondescript spiral galaxy is humble? To pray to that creator to grant your wishes because you have a special, personal, one-on-one relationship with him and that he would be willing to suspend or amend his Divine Plan just for you...that's humble? Who's eaten up with self-importance here?

Where did I make such a claim?

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You think all scientists do is read instruments?

When they are being scientists--yes.

From what I've heard making it to graduate school is a piece of piss seeing as how dependent graduate schools are on people making it to their doors.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Oh. And believing that the almighty, supreme creator of everything created the whole, unimaginably vast universe just for one species on one speck of dust in one insignificant, remote backwater region of one nondescript spiral galaxy is humble? To pray to that creator to grant your wishes because you have a special, personal, one-on-one relationship with him and that he would be willing to suspend or amend his Divine Plan just for you...that's humble? Who's eaten up with self-importance here?

Where did I make such a claim?

Your self-importance makes you think I was talking about you.

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When they are being scientists--yes.

So that guy in front of the blackboard in the image I posted isn't a scientist. OK. Not that I'm surprised at your ability to un-see reality.

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From what I've heard making it to graduate school is a piece of piss seeing as how dependent graduate schools are on people making it to their doors.

And that' all you've got: rhetoric. No logical argumentation, no evidence, just personal attacks. Sad.

Well, if it weren't so funny, I mean. Laughing

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@FBM,

First the silence -- then the thunder -- then the unbelievable tiny squeak and whimper... Duh

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@tenderfoot,

I just wish people would stop personalizing my questions and comments. I'm trying to discuss theist beliefs in general, not about any particular A2K member.

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Frankly, I consider virtually all religion to be institutionalized superstition, even my "religion", Buddhism--at least what many populations have done to Buddhism. But I prefer in that regard the term superstition to religion. It seems to me that religion most accurately refers to something that only "mystics" (e.g., practicioners of zen Buddhism) not churches refer to. Religion, as I've said before, denotes the re-connection of the individual to his alienated reality. Re-ligion (the latter half denotes something like ligament, that which binds things together).

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I am a strong Christian, have been since I was a child. You may say I'm biased because I know no different, but i think believing in God gives life a purpose. I've been through so many rough patches in my life but having something to believe in has helped me, like hope. God has been someone to talk to when I'm down, even if i never hear back, it's comforting knowing someone is listening. Atheists use excuses such as world disasters to disprove his existence, but as far as the holy scriptures are concerned, God never made a promise to stop this, he gave us free will. It was, after all Adam and Eve, the human who committed the first sin. God is not to blame, human nature is, he gave us the choice and we chose wrong. Another point I have is the beauty of the world, the trees, flowers, how everything depends on each other and the natural harmony of the world. Surely that was not a coincidence? Something put everything there, created the human body. It is just too perfect to be an accident.

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@SophieDavies11m3,

It wasn't an accident, but that doesn't entail intelligent design. Natural selection isn't accidental, and it is sufficient to explain how all known life forms became beautiful and tightly interdependent. I'm open to the possibility of the existence of a creator-being, all I ask for is some sort of evidence. Real evidence, not just Bronze Age stories.

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@FBM,

I can appreciate spendi's point of view.

If you are really interested in understanding how or why people who you might consider to be intelligent believe in God, then stick to that subject and try to avoid scoring what may seem like easy points by raising contradictions and illogic within the Bible.

Firs of all, not everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as some aspect of God believes the Bible is the literal Word of God and secondly not everyone who believes in God believes Jesus Christ is another version of him.

It doesn't take a Biblical scholar to know that the Bible is the compilation of the writings of different individuals over a long period of time. As such is it any wonder that it contains contradictions of fact and philosophy?

Unless you insist that believers in God must also believe the Bible is his inerrant Word, a disscussion of Biblical contradictions is far from the topic in which you seem to profess interest.

Not to insult the Bible, but this tactic is similar to arguing against the existence of aliens by picking apart E.T. or Cowboys and Aliens.

Your insistence on empirical evidence of the existence of God is interesting. Do you require such evidence for all of your beliefs?

There is a notion that God has endowed humanity with free will and that to make his presence and wishes certain to his creations would seriously interfere with the exercise of free will. Do you think that this is merely a clever argument by believers who wish to explain the lack of empirical evidence?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Once again, I'm not telling anybody what they have to believe. I'm reporting what they claim to believe. And again, if that doesn't describe your beliefs, then I'm not talking about you at all and am curious as to why you'd be concerned about me talking about other people.

As for requiring evidence for my beliefs, that's an inherent contradiction. If I have evidence, then I have knowledge, not belief. If there is no evidence, then I suspend judgement about the matter until such is presented.

"Not to insult the Bible, but this tactic is similar to arguing against the existence of aliens by picking apart E.T. or Cowboys and Aliens."

While I agree with you that with regards to the Bible and those movies are probably equally fictitious, does anyone claim that those movies are real history? Do they kill other people for believing other movies? Do they withhold medical treatments from their children until they die because of something they saw in those movies? Anyone whose society is harmed by religious-based behavior has a right to complain about it.

What I have pointed out is the utter lack of evidence for any creator god. I may occasionally drift into rhetoric, but when I'm speaking carefully, I simply say that and use it as a basis to ask why people who demand evidence for such things as finance, law, technology, etc, so easily dismiss evidence-based reasoning for their favorite religious claims.

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@FBM,

Assume I have respect for you FBM.

It would bother me to see you picking on children.

Pointing out the contradictions in the Bible is quite easy and has been done ad nauseum. It, in no way, furthers a discussion on why people believe in God, and it will never change the minds of the people who believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Assume I have respect for you FBM.

OK. I respect you, insofar as I know you through your posts. I don't, however, respect bad ideas or bad behavior, both of which are rife in religious circles.

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It would bother me to see you picking on children.

It would bother me if I were to pick on children. Not sure where that came from or what you mean by it.

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Pointing out the contradictions in the Bible is quite easy and has been done ad nauseum. It, in no way, furthers a discussion on why people believe in God, and it will never change the minds of the people who believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

I agree in large part that it's not possible (at least, not likely) to reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. The "ad nauseum" part probably only applies to Christians who are sick of hearing how fallacious it is to believe what the Bible says, but insist on doing so anyway.

As to furthering the discussion, that can only be done by presenting some credible empirical evidence for the actual existence of a god. Otherwise, it's just speculations about speculations about a feel-good placebo, seems.

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@FBM,

Insisting that fundamentalist Christians explain the numerous contradictions in the Bible is very much similiar to picking on children.

They can't and they won't and yet some insist on insisting they do and I'm forced to assume it is because it makes them feel clever.

There is nothing particulary clever or insightful about pointing out Biblical contradictions, and I find it pointless and nauseating - BTW, I am not a Christian.

Remember, the title of this thread is Why believe in god? It's not Why do you fools believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?

I'm reluctant to go this route, but I have to wonder why you aren't pointing out all of the contradictions in the Koran?

It seems to me that you are not really interested in why people believe in God. You've made up your mind that it is a fallacious belief and so prefer to attempt to prove your opinion rather than understanding another.

Again, are all of your beliefs based on empiracle evidence?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

It is routine in scholarly circles to test thought systems for internal contradictions. This is one of the functions of peer-reviewed journals. It's legitimate analysis and criticism. If the thought system is incoherent, it either needs to be corrected or abandoned as irrevocably flawed. There are scores of logical fallacies and if a thought system contains one or more of them, any conclusion based on that thought system are suspect. Not necessarily wrong (the logical fallacy fallacy), but nevertheless, that conclusion cannot be supported by those premises. Pointing out the logical fallacies and contradictions in Christian theology is nothing akin to picking on children. That assertion is demeaning to Christians. Are you saying that they have a child's mentality? Even I give the more credit than that.

What didn't you understand about what I said about my own beliefs? If I have evidence, I have knowledge, not belief. If there's no evidence, I suspend judgement. There is no evidence for any gods, therefore I suspend judgement on whether or not one or more of them exist. This is a totally separate issue from the fact that Christian theology is rife with self-contradictions.

As for why I haven't said anything about the Koran, apart from it being a red herring, I haven't studied the Koran, so I'm unqualified to discuss it. I have studied the Bible at university level, however, and as a believer. Studying the Bible is precisely what changed my mind and convinced me that it's fiction.

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@FBM,

I am not equating Christians to children, I am equating those people who believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God to children.

I'm generally respectful of people's religious beliefs, unless I think they are blatantly ridiculous, and the blatantly ridiculous is almost alway associated with the those adherent who can be termed fundamentalist. The wisest of Christian theologists cannot offer even a passable reconciliation between the contradictions of the Bible and an assertion that it is the actual Word of God.

I could be wrong, but there is much more to Christian theology than a belief that the Bible is inerrant, and I really have a hard time understanding how the realization of this obvious fact could lead to a crisis of faith or conversion to atheism.

I do in fact respect the atheist's conclusion that God doesn't exist because there is no sensory evidence that he does. I think it's a flawed conclusion but am happy to discuss why. I'm afraid, though, that I am very impatient with what I consider childish arguments like, "If there was a God, babies wouldn't die, nuns wouldn't ever be raped and people wouldn't suffer." This is not to say that you have made such arguments, but focusing on the contradictions of the Bible are about as persuasive.

Again, the thread is titled "Why do you believe in god?" I can't imagine anyone taking seriously the answer, "Because the Bible tells me so."

You're certainly free to go off on a tangent and explain why you don't buy Christianity, but so am I to try and redirect the discussion to the original
matter.

My comment concerning the Koran wasn't worthy and I regret it. I have a tendency to equate criticism of Christianity with criticism of Western Civilization. It often is, but not in this case.

As for your beliefs, you seem to be suggesting you don't have any, you only have knowledge based on sensory evidence. I doubt this is actually the case.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

The OP, "Why believe in god?" quite naturally suggests a discussion of reasons for not believing in god, as well.

I respect people, not beliefs. If someone's belief leads to behavior that damages either individuals or society as a whole, and religions do both, then I feel justified in pointing out the errors in that thought system.

The crisis of faith I experienced didn't come about because of contradictions in the Bible. I was aware of them while I was still a believer and had acquired some skill at explaining them away. The class was "History of the Bible," and it was taught by a Baptist minister who certainly wasn't antagonistic to the material. He was, nevertheless, very honest about the problems he saw in the claim that the Bible is the word of God.

Why do you doubt that I have no beliefs? I've studied Pyrrhonian skepticism in some depth.

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Ah, I see.
That is possible, of course.
But, just for this once, I would like theists state the positives of their beliefs.
Too often their "arguments" have been negative ones, in opposition to atheism.
I would really like to hear what they have to say.
I'm certain the atheists here would give anyone who made effort to do so a fair hearing.
Speaking personally, I am not remotely threatened by the beliefs of theists. Or the fact that their beliefs are so different to mine.
And I am not motivated by some burning need to shoot their beliefs down.

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@JLNobody,

I certainly hope that my mishandling of my computer did not kill this wonderful thread. Kudos Msolga. While I have not agreed with all positions taken here, I must say that I have not seen as much intelligence demonstrated on any other thread or forum.

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Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

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